Barack Obama's spirtual advisor in his own "christian" words.
3-13-2008
If anybody didn't know why I am so against Barack Obama becoming president, let this serve as a very blunt example. People are normally judged by the company they keep. Jerimah Wright has been a close friend of Barack Obama for 20 years. I don't know what verison of Christianity Barack and his pastor subscribe too, but its not the one most mainstream Christians worship in America. I've never approved of bringing race in the pulpit for obvious reasons. We are all god's children. It's bad enough we have ignorant people in our society who are constantly playing race cards like a Las Vegas poker dealer dealing cards from a deck. Jerimah Wright has no concept of "love thy neighbor as you would love thyself". As a black man I can't help not to feel sick to my stomach watching this video. There are black people in this country that are very racist yet call themselves "Christians". This is one of the outlets of where it's resonating from. Barack needs to be held accountable for his association with this man of hate not god. I wonder do the supporters of Barack Obama who happen to be white or Jews or people who lost family members on 911 know what Barack's pastor thinks about them? For some dumb reason, I seriously doubt they do.
If anybody didn't know why I am so against Barack Obama becoming president, let this serve as a very blunt example. People are normally judged by the company they keep. Jerimah Wright has been a close friend of Barack Obama for 20 years. I don't know what verison of Christianity Barack and his pastor subscribe too, but its not the one most mainstream Christians worship in America. I've never approved of bringing race in the pulpit for obvious reasons. We are all god's children. It's bad enough we have ignorant people in our society who are constantly playing race cards like a Las Vegas poker dealer dealing cards from a deck. Jerimah Wright has no concept of "love thy neighbor as you would love thyself". As a black man I can't help not to feel sick to my stomach watching this video. There are black people in this country that are very racist yet call themselves "Christians". This is one of the outlets of where it's resonating from. Barack needs to be held accountable for his association with this man of hate not god. I wonder do the supporters of Barack Obama who happen to be white or Jews or people who lost family members on 911 know what Barack's pastor thinks about them? For some dumb reason, I seriously doubt they do.
posted by Alpha Conservative Male at 9:20 PM
40 Comments:
Guilt by association could sink him. If the media decides to drive this thing, his entire political career could be over. The question is, is this type of attack fair game? Honestly....,yes, it is.
We'll just have to wait and see what's going to happen. It's a certainty that the right-wingers are going to push this all the way to the Democratic convention.
Unfortunately the liberal media will avoid getting into this topic too deep. They want Barrack to win.
How quick the Barack Obama supporters were to chime in when I stated Geraldine comments. Where are they now? It doesn't come as a surprise why Wright gave Farahkan a "life time achievement award". Let's face facts, they both are cut from the same cloth.
P Allen"Guilt by association could sink him."
With all my heart, I hope this does sink him like being tied to a lead weight and thrown into the ocean.
P Alen" If the media decides to drive this thing, his entire political career could be over. The question is, is this type of attack fair game? Honestly....,yes, it is."
The media had no problem going after McCain for accepting the endorsement of Pastor Haggy, and that was also fair game Allen. If the media thumbs its nose at this, it will show without a shadow of a doubt that the media has a bias in support of Obama. When I first mentioned last year about Jerimah Wright I said that it was no way possible that a person could have a pastor like that and be President. If America was all black, Wright's comments would be harmless to Obama, but there are many many many different races in the United States. Jermiah Wright is so hard wired in his ignorance he failed to realize that without non blacks, Obama wouldn't even have a chance at winning the Democrat nomination.
Conservative black man"Unfortunately the liberal media will avoid getting into this topic too deep. They want Barrack to win."
Not this time Conservative blackman. Obama is suppose to be speaking out on this later today I believe. When Trinity last year changed it's mission statement, that was a big sign that the new media outlets were having an affect on Obama and Wright. The old media tried to ignore reporting on the affair of Bill Clinton yet because of Matt Drudge, they had really no choice but to report it. For Obama, how does he explain this? His sat in his pew for 20 years and listened to that flith. There is no excuse he can give that will be legit.
This is Barack Obama's response.
The pastor of my church, Rev. Jeremiah Wright, who recently preached his last sermon and is in the process of retiring, has touched off a firestorm over the last few days. He's drawn attention as the result of some inflammatory and appalling remarks he made about our country, our politics, and my political opponents.
Let me say at the outset that I vehemently disagree and strongly condemn the statements that have been the subject of this controversy. I categorically denounce any statement that disparages our great country or serves to divide us from our allies. I also believe that words that degrade individuals have no place in our public dialogue, whether it's on the campaign stump or in the pulpit. In sum, I reject outright the statements by Rev. Wright that are at issue. ...
The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation. When these statements first came to my attention, it was at the beginning of my presidential campaign. I made it clear at the time that I strongly condemned his comments. But because Rev. Wright was on the verge of retirement, and because of my strong links to the Trinity faith community, where I married my wife and where my daughters were baptized, I did not think it appropriate to leave the church. ...
With Rev. Wright's retirement and the ascension of my new pastor, Rev. Otis Moss, III, Michelle and I look forward to continuing a relationship with a church that has done so much good. And while Rev. Wright's statements have pained and angered me, I believe that Americans will judge me not on the basis of what someone else said, but on the basis of who I am and what I believe in; on my values, judgment and experience to be President of the United States.
Reverend White. You claim that all whites have better lives and upbringings than blacks. I just want to say that you're wrong.
I have grown up in a diversified community, blacks, whites, Asians, Hispanics, etc., and as a Caucasian, life for me was very difficult.
I came form a working class family of seven-children, my parents divorced when I was five. Economically, we have survived, and had to put up a lot of sacrifices to keep ends meet.
As for me, growing up was very hard. I know what it is like to be discriminated against; I have been called names that were vile and derogative by people of all color; I've been passed over for promotion numerous times.
Today, I am stretching and surviving. I may not be rich or successful; I am proud to say, that there are many African-Americans out there who have accomplished their goals without means of entertainment or sports. It is called hard work and education.
"...the right-wingers are going to push this all the way to the Democratic convention." (PAA)
This came from the Clinton machine....and the Clinton machine sure ain't "Right-wingers."
Of course, Bob Jones University was used to assail G W Bush, and Reverend Haggie was used against McCain.
So yeah, it's fair game.
One of the problems with with Jeremiah Wright's comparing blacks to the Hebrews in the Roman occupied Mideast and, of course, whites to the Romans is that the roles of both those groups are reversed. While the Hebrews WERE indeed a majority in Roman occupied Jerusalem, American blacks are a 12% minority here. In fact they've fallen from the largest racial minority to the second largest, now that Hispanics (14%) have taken over first place.
See, the problem is that the Romans were an occupying minority in Jerusalem....while whites are native citizens and the majority (77%) of Americans.
Whereas the Roman's minority rule was an injustice, the only similar injustice in America would be if some group OTHER than its white majority ran this country. THAT would be a similar "minority oppresion of the majority."
I suppose the (W)right Reverend got a bit confused, as to the math and all, see what I mean?
And there's no comparison between the likes of Bob Jones University (which didn't/doesn't recognize Catholics as Christians, nor allow inter-racial dating) nor Reverend Haggie (who reviles Catholicism) and the likes of the race-heters of the NOI and the likes of Reverend Wright.
But HEY! Who knows? Barack Obama may well weather this storm.
But wait'll America gets a load of his older brother Abongo ("Roy") Obama - a Marxist Luo rebel and a radical Islamist to boot. Now that is some juicy stuff!
Believe me, there's an endless supply of skeletons here. Barack Obama is almost "Spitzerian" in that regard!
Isn't that the new verb (Spitzerian), since NY's Governor took the fall a few days ago?
its certainly a questionable relationship, i mean obama went to the church so he must've known the guys views. this type of thing can be forgiven and overlooked though and has in the past. Reagan fought to revoke the Internal Revenue Service's authority to deny charitable tax exemptions to a racist hill billy college, bob jones university, the denial was over the school's open ban on interracial dating, George Bush even spoke there when he was running for prez the first time and in a close race with mccain. certainly questionable decisions by all these men. this is not something that would stop me from voting for obama though i think all religion is a little crazy though. so im not all that surprised when preachers become racists or other types of extremists
JMK babbles; "This came from the Clinton machine....and the Clinton machine sure ain't "Right-wingers."
Hmmmmm? Blame the Clintons?????
I did a search for an article I read back in Nov. 2006. The article appeared on the neo-conservative "Human Events" web site. Unfortunately I was unable to find the article. Nevertheless, it was in that article was where I first read, or even heard of Wright or the Trinity Church.
I believe it was in March of 2007 that Jeremiah Wright first appeared on Hannity and Combs, whereas Sean Hannity vehemently attacked the churches "Black Values" system approach and message to the black community.
So, if the Clinton machine had anything to do with this, all the work, press, information gathering and publicity was done by the right-wingers!!!! What they don't realize is that, the exact same efforts is going to put Hillary in the Whitehouse in 08'!
As I stated earlier, political attacks using guilt by association is a "fair" (though sardonic and morose) tactic. Just keep that in mind for every politicain that comes down the pipe and has any type of questionable associations.
Let's focus on where we AGREE PAA.
First I agree with you that the issue is the vile, hate-filled,anti-American and logically impaired statements made by Wright, NOT where they came from.
Still, THIS current flap is ALL the Clinton machine's doing.
The GOP was looking to wrap this up, wrapped up with Barack Obama's brother Abongo ("Roy") Obama, a Maoist, Luo rebel and radical Muslim, living in Kenya who supports (engages in?) the Muslim genocide against Christians in that country, and tie all that up with a "Rezko bow" - Obama's ties to Syrian thug Anthony "Tough Tony" Rezko, for good measure.
Republicans have been urging their members in States where you can vote in any Primary so long as you're a registered voter, to vote for Obama, to get the Clintons out of the race.
Their calculus is that the Clinton machine WOULD NOT really help Obama in 2008, since his loss would assure her of a more open run in 2012.
A Clinton election against ANY Republican is assured of being close, since with her high negatives it's impossible for her to cross the 50% mark, making her a preferable target than a far more energetic and charismatic candidate with a sparse record.
The fact that Obama chose THIS particular bigot as his "spiritual advisor," was part of that congregation for 20 years and had this odious guy Marry them, says a lot about Barack Obama.
The fact that his older brother "Roy" (whom he praises in Dreams From my Father) is a Maoist rebel and an avowed radical Muslim, says even more.
But THIS current sliming is ALL Hillary.
The GOP was hoping to dump this along with a few more LEGITIMATE buckets of slime on this guy in September and October.
Of course, the REAL issue is the hate-filled and bigoted remarks by Reverend Wright.
Definitely guilty by association although you will not find alot of people who disagree with his pastor's message. it will only anger people who won't vote for him anyway.
blackstone"Definitely guilty by association although you will not find alot of people who disagree with his pastor's message"
Blackstone,If that is so then I feel extremely sorry for those people. People like Jerimah Wright, Joseph Lowrey are the reasonw why this self victimized mindset exists in the black community in the first place. If Wright and people who believe like him believe that the United States is the "KKKA", why doesn't he and others like him denounce their citizenship and migrate to Africa to live? Personally, Im sick of it.
"although you will not find alot of people who disagree with his pastor's message. it will only anger people who won't vote for him anyway." (Blackstone)
Well, you "will not find a lot of people who disagree with his partor's message" in THAT Church, that anti-American viewpoint is a single-digit viewpoint nationwide. That's the problem for the Obama campaign...it WILL, as it SHOULD anger, ANY and ALL reasonable, rational people who find racial bigotry offensive.
Guilt by association is tied to the old adage of "Birds of a feather flock together." That said, I have friends some for more than years 20 or more and while we disagree about a myriad of social issues it is never at the expense of our friendship. Many Cathlolics chose not to leave the Catholic Church in spite of the Catholics churchs cover-up and subsequent harboring hundreds-possibly thousands-of child molesters. This obsessive overblown "news coverage" takes focus off of the real issues: The weak dollar, Growing deficits, Chinas imminent role as the number one Super Power on earth-and they are human rights abusing communists that enjoy the millions of job we have provided their economy.(So much so that they are more than happy to loan us all the money we need wink,wink..) All of this is followed up by an ill concieved war will enivitably bankrupt U.S. and an economy that is tanking! To be clear, evil has two primary motives: 1) To deceive and 2) To distract. In the midst of all the deception and distractions of these political campaigns, my hope is that all Americans will keep a proper focus when deciding on a whomever they chose for President. Selah!
jmk"Well, you "will not find a lot of people who disagree with his partor's message" in THAT Church, that anti-American viewpoint is a single-digit viewpoint nationwide. That's the problem for the Obama campaign...it WILL, as it SHOULD anger, ANY and ALL reasonable, rational people who find racial bigotry offensive."
I agree 1000% JMK. Pastors like Jerimah Wright, Joseph Lowry and others are no different then radical islamic clerics that preach hate to America, jews are the devil, and that non believers should be killed. They run the exact parellel. When I tune into TBN or other Christian Cable Networks, I don't hear pastors and preachers spew the venom like Wright and others like him spew. Real Christians want no part of that crap and with good reason. These people are so ginned up on hate based on race, how in the world can they ever profess to love others who are of a different race based on Christian love?
anon"Guilt by association is tied to the old adage of "Birds of a feather flock together." That said, I have friends some for more than years 20 or more and while we disagree about a myriad of social issues it is never at the expense of our friendship."
Are any of those friends of yours a pastor or a person you look to for spirtual and moral guidance anon like Wright was to Obama?
anon"Many Cathlolics chose not to leave the Catholic Church in spite of the Catholics churchs cover-up and subsequent harboring hundreds-possibly thousands-of child molesters."
I don't reall clergy of the Catholic faith preaching out of the bible to their conregations that pedophila was normal or should be normal. You are trying to compare apples and oranges. Jerimah Wright preached to his congregation flith, but he believed in what he preached. Many of congregation that atteneded trinity were in absolute sync with what Jerimah Wright preached. So of course they weren't going to believe.
anon"This obsessive overblown "news coverage" takes focus off of the real issues: The weak dollar, Growing deficits, Chinas imminent role as the number one Super Power on earth-and they are human rights abusing communists that enjoy the millions of job we have provided their economy."
I have a feeling that if this would have happened to John McCain instead of Barack Obama, you wouldn't feel then that the coverage is "obsessive". This story isn't even a week old yet. One could say that people were "obsessing" over the New York Times story of McCain and a lobbyist from 8 years ago that has to date no beared any fruit to be real. Some people are actually having a hard time watching Barack Obama finally come under attack.If they are upset over this, the Tony Rezko story might make Obama supporters suicidal.
As for the issues facing our country you mentioned earlier, Barack Obama has come out with a plan or position on any of them except for Iraq.
Baracks position on fiscal monitary policy is ?
Baracks position on the trade defecit is?
Baracks poistion on the weak dollar is?
Baracks position on the social security is?
Baracks solution to the pending collaspe of Social Security is?
Baracks solution to the 10 trillion dollars of unfunded mandates coming due is?
So to say that this should now be about the issues is pretty much a joke. Nobody knows where Obama even stands on the issues. All they know about Obama is that he says the word "CHANGE".
"In the midst of all the deception and distractions of these political campaigns, my hope is that all Americans will keep a proper focus when deciding on a whomever they chose for President." (anon)
Agreed! And in some places, it's already happening!!!
In Ohion, where Barack Obama once led McCain by almost six points, he now trails by four in the most recent polls and those were partly conducted before this story broke.
I think a lot of moderate and Independent whites embraced Barack Obama because they saw him as a "Tiger Woods-like character" - someone "beyond race and mere any racial animus.
A bi-racial candidate without any racial axe to grind. He grew up privileged and OUTSIDE the mainstream Civil Rights movement, he went to "the right schools" (Harvard) and speaks like what he is - an educated American.
Look, Obama having this man as a mentor and spiritual advisor, is similar to a white Republican having David Dukes as his mentor, then claiming, "I never heard David Dukes make any anti-American, anti-black or anti-Semetic comments.
That kind of thing just doesn't fly.
"I agree 1000% JMK. Pastors like Jerimah Wright, Joseph Lowry and others are no different then radical islamic clerics that preach hate to America, jews are the devil, and that non believers should be killed." (Tyronne)
In fact, they're not different than whites, like Tom Metzger (of the Aryan nation) who spew vile anti-American, anti-black and anti-Semetic statements.
Lost in all the damage control from the Obama camp is them throwing other black Churches under the proverbial bus, by claiming, "This (Wright's) kind of sermonizing is not uncommon in many black Churches."
So, with ONE sentence, they smear ALL black Churches, to defend ONE vile hate-monger, who is an avowed admirer of NOI leader Louis Farrakhan.
I worked for nearly twenty years in a South Bronx firehouse and we engaged a number of black Churches for food deliveries and Christmas programs and I don't know of ANY such Churches who embraced the likes of Farrakhan or his teachings.
"I have a feeling that if this would have happened to John McCain instead of Barack Obama, you wouldn't feel then that the coverage is "obsessive"." (Tyronne)
Come to think of it, the FIRST such smear of this election cycle was used against John Mccain!
The Reverend Haggie smear. Reverend Haggie has called the Catholic Church "the great whore," and said "The Jews have brought about their own persecution wherevever they've gone." On the bright side, he never blamed America for 9/11, never made the insane claim that "America developped the AIDS virus," nor said, "God Damn America," so he's got THAT going for him.
Moreover, McCain never attended Haggie's Church, wasn't a congregant for over 20 years, didn't have Haggie Marry him and his wife and didn't call Haggie "a mentor."
Yet, none on the Left complained about that smear at all.
It's part and parcel of politics....it's a mean, often rough "sport."
JMK proposes;
1. "Republicans have been urging their members in States where you can vote in any Primary so long as you're a registered voter, to vote for Obama, to get the Clinton's out of the race."
JMK conflicting statement;
2. "A Clinton election against ANY Republican is assured of being close, since with her high negatives it's impossible for her to cross the 50% mark, making her a preferable target than a far more energetic and charismatic candidate with a sparse record."
In the first statement, you state "republicans were urged to vote democratic" to stop Clinton. Yet, in your second statement you say that republicans "prefer" Clinton over the "energetic and charismatic candidate" [Obama].
It's obvious that these are conflicting and contradicting statements. Conflicting statements of this type automatically casts a cloud of suspicion over the intent of the persons responsible for the initiative.
Thus, I'd like for "you" to explain why would republicans "urge" their constituents to vote in the Democratic primary for Obama when the "preferable" target is Clinton?
Anonymous states; "Many Catholics chose not to leave the Catholic Church in spite of the Catholics church's cover-up and subsequent harboring hundreds-possibly thousands-of child molesters."
RB replies; "You are trying to compare apples and oranges."
Not so RB... Obama said he wasn't aware of Wright's inflammatory sermons. Similarly, many Catholic church members said they were unaware of the numerous priest's who were pedophiles. Sure, you could say they're both lying about their knowledge of the offense's, and if so, both Obama and those who knew of the priest's actions should be held accountable for the lie.
Many in the hierarchical of the Catholic church knew of the pedophilia exploits of their brethren. Granted, they're not running for office, but neither is Jeremiah Wright!
Guilt by association should still apply!
The "only" difference here is the magnitude of the offense. The priest perpetrated the abomination of raping and destroying the innocence of young boys. Whereas Wright insults and defames his own country.
We all know that politics and religion are only two subjects which the entire American population will never completely agree. Thus, both lend themselves to critique, analysis, examination, and angst.
Over the pass several days Barack Obamas preacher has become one of most reviled figures in America. So much so, as to cause the likes of a Sean Hannity to call for Obama to not only exit the presidential race, but also to resign his elected position as an Illinois senator.
RB stated; "With all my heart, I hope this does sink him like being tied to a lead weight and thrown into the ocean."
We'll see if you get your wish RB. It looks pretty bad at the present. Just remember one thing, when things get nasty on both sides, no-one wins!
Conservative brother
There is a severe double standard in that White clergymen who say insane things get deservedly trashed in the press. The comments of Wright are vile and the Obama feigning of ignorance is an insult to our intelligence.
I am waiting for him to be asked about his ties to Bill Ayers.
The fact that Hillary R Clinton (HRC) has such HIGH negatives does NOT negate the fact that most Republicans (I'm NOT a Republican, I'm a "Zell Miller Democrat") want the Clintons out of the race, mainly because they believe it'd get the vaunted Clinton smear machine out of the election.
Ergo, there is no contradiction between two TRUE statements, (1) that many in the GOP have actively encouraged those among them who can to vote in Dem Primaries against HRC, despite the fact that (2) HRC does indeed have very HIGH negatives, just as Rudy Giuliani did.
High negatives, DON'T preclude that candidate from winning a close election, they merely virtually assure (barring a seizmic event) a close election.
Sean Hannity is a Republican shill.
Nothing wrong with that, many in the MSM are Democratic shills.
Regardless, Barack Obam hasn't become "one of the most reviled figures in America," but Reverend Jeremmiah Wright certainly has.
Wright's views are similar to those of Tom Metzger and Louis Farrakhan...and that's a huge problem to most people.
Recent polls have shown that only 8% of Americans support the views of Reverend Wright. In fact, the vast majority of African-Americans oppose those views.
In fact, THAT'S the worst thing done in all this, various Obama surrogates saying things like, "Such topics are not atypical in black Churches," and "these remarks are heard/understood differently by blacks."
Those kinds of remarks imply that a majority of black Americans subscribe to overt racial bigotry. THAT'S smearing all of black America, in my view.
Barack Obama is an idiot if he thinks his lame rejection of his pastor's words will pacify most of us. I was personally offended that he has so little respect for the intelligence of "the folks", as Bill O'Reilly calls us.
While I don't believe that Obama shares all of Jeremiah Wright's extremist views, he certainly knew about them long before they became public knowledge. How could he not know? How could he sit in the man's church for 20 years and not know?! He knew, he just didn't think it would be revealed.
Well, Wright's anti-American, racist beliefs are out now and we need to realize something. They aren't limited to Jeremiah Wright; no, to a greater or lesser degree all liberals subscribe to the view that America is the catalyst for all evil in the world. This is their guiding principle, no matter how much they may deny it.
This is what's driving the "anti-war" movement, Bush Derangement Syndrome, and the MSM's blackout of all good news from Iraq. It also explains liberals' deafening silence on the abysmal status of women, gays, and ethnic/religious minorities in Muslim countries. So even if Jeremiah Wright didn't exist we'd still have a BIG problem. We have a fifth column we need to deal with, and it ain't going to be pretty.
JMK believes; "Ergo, there is no contradiction between two TRUE statements,"
Quite the contrary JMK!
The bottom line states that "you can't have it both ways"! Ergo, the obvious deception. Playing one side against the other is hardly some strange newly formed Jedi-mind-trick. Divide and conquer is the oldest trick in the book.
You get a huge kick out of stating that the Clintons are behind the Reverend Wright/Obama fiasco. Nothing could be further from the truth. Yes the Clintons are savvy, slick and cunning politicians, but they definitely aren't stupid. Although this entire mess plays in their favor, they know the negative media is not good for the Democratic party as a whole.
I will grant you this much. Your right-wing media friends picked up a lot of dirty little political tactics from the Clinton machine. Hannity, (who you rightly referred to as a "shill") makes no bones about uncovering, publicizing and driving the Reverend Wright story. Hannity and other republicans have high hopes of hanging this around the neck of the entire Democratic party!!
I am listening to a video of Obama's race speech. I take issue with how he lumps all black churches to what Trinity United Church of Christ does and espouses (provocative speaking, baudy language, etc.) I never heard bad language from the pulpit when I attended black churches. Maybe this is a new thing going on since I quit attending. At least he has made a response. I don't agree with what is said for the most part but at least we know what he says.
I find it interesting that when it is a black minister being questioned it is political and racist. What would they call me? The message that Wright had taught and what I read years ago on the church web site is not Christian. He can believe whatever he wants to but it is not Christian.
BTW Jeremiah Wright has retired and a young fellow is the new pastor. He better be ready for extensive scrutiny, just like all people claiming to be Christian. How much did you hear about John Hagee when he endorsed John McCain? You heard a bit about it. You will not hear as much because there is no real connection between the two men like there is between Jeremiah Wright and Obama.
I bet I can lose 30 pounds faster than he can win an election.
Tyrone,
I guess you were right when you said he couldn't easily dodge this. However, after 20 years he should have known what his pastor's stance was. Either he believed in it or he stayed there for political gains. I have a co-worker who lived in Chicago and attended that church. He said he felt uncomfortable with the messages and left the church.
When I moved to Atlanta from So Cal, I joined a local church that was recommended by my best friend who's a deacon there. I slowly realized the pastor was too far to the left for my liking and was an "Infomercial" to the Democratic party. Most of his sermons were spent bashing Bush and the Republicans. Plus he is seen on TV with people such as Cynthia McKinney.
I was President of the Singles Ministry and I grew disenchanted over time with his weekly rants. After about 18 months there, I finally left.
My point is, it only took me a short time to see what my former Pastor's agenda was and I disagreed with it. How can Senator Obama claim that he did not know after being a member there for 20 years?
Did he stay in the church for political reasons or out of wanting to fit in after being told he wasn't Black enough? I think it was both.
"The bottom line states that "you can't have it both ways"!" (PAA)
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(Sarcasm alert)
I don't know who this "bottomline" guy is (a rapper?), but he's wrong.
(Done)
As I said very clearly, it's understandable that the GOP wants the Clinton machine OUT of this election, despite recognizing that Obama might well make a more formidable candidate. Nothing at ALL contradictory in that realization.
For one thing, they calculate, probably correctly, that the Clinton machine would NOT help Obama, hoping instead for an open Democratic field for themselves in 2012.
For another, Obama has a treasure trove of slimely connections, from Anthony "Tough Tony" Rezko (a Syrian gangster from Chicago, who helped the Obama's get a house), to Abongo ("Roy") Obama, his Kenyan half-brother, who is a Maoist Luo rebel and radical Muslim....all of that "grist for the mill."
I give Obama high marks for his eleoquence and speaking skills, especially with yesterday's "race speach," BUT there's no way, short of a powerfully convincing conversion on HIS part to sound Conservative principles a la Thomas Sowell &/or Walter E Williams, that I could support a Senator with a more Liberal voting record than the hated-John Edwards.
And YES, while Hannity is as much a Conservative/Republican shill as say, Bill Moyers, Dan Rather, Sam Donaldson are/were Liberal/Democratic shills.
AND there's NOTHING wrong with the media jumping all over the sickening, hate-filled remarks made by Jeremiah Wright. He is black Tom Metzger.
YOU call whites like Charles Murray (a great scholar) and Jared Taylor, who are both "white Claude Steele's "hate-filled, and bigoted" despite the fact that neither of those two have ever offered a tenor different from that of fellow scholar (albeit a wrong-headed one) Claude Steele.
While I DON'T succumb to calling everyone I disagree with (ie Claude Steele) a bigot, you seem to fall prey to that on a regular basis.
JMK states; "I don't know who this "bottomline" guy is (a rapper?), but he's wrong."
The "bottom line" always expresses the known, and given facts. Taking the "bottom line" and expressing [or spinning it] in two or more different ways is deceitful if not hypocritical. But if the shoe fits...
JMK says; "AND there's NOTHING wrong with the media jumping all over the sickening, hate-filled remarks made by Jeremiah Wright. He is black Tom Metzger."
Enough is enough!!!
First things first. I AM NOT A FOLLOWER OR BELIEVER IN REV. J. WRIGHT! Nor am I a follower and believer in Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, The Ayatollah, The Pope, Buddah, Rev. Moon, Creflo Dollar, Snake-handling churches ect...
Your statement, "he's a black Tom Metzger" and statements of the like, are "purely" intended to strike fear into the hearts of whites!!! There is no proof of Wright ever advocating supremacy of blacks, direct threats toward the U.S. government, outward anti semitism, "lone-wolf" racist tactics, religious zealotry, and furthermore, Metzger is an avowed Atheist!
The "truth" is that you really have nothing to fear with concerns to Rev. Wright, and a "fact" is that you know it. Whites vastly outnumber blacks (6 to 1) in this country. Blacks have very little economic ownership, political power and fall way behind every other group educationally.
Question;
What would you have to fear if every black person in this country suddenly took up a religion that espoused "African-American" unity and Black Pride? (Perhaps prior to reconstruction most blacks espoused such a sentiment....as slaves!)
Conversely;
What would I (as a black person) have to fear if every "white" person in this country took up a religion that espoused "White Pride"? (Oh wait...Didnt you have that for more than 400 years? It didn't work out to well for non-whites though....)
The "facts" are, presently, almost every predominately black church in the U.S. preaches some form of Black Pride and black unity every Sunday. The fact is, Black Pride does not negatively effect you (as a white person, Jew, Arab, Chinese, Greek, Martian) IN ANY WAY!
The "facts" are most whites already have "White Pride". You see it in all white, and majority white neighborhoods, schools and other institutions. The "facts" are that too many blacks do "not" have "Black Pride", evidence being the neighborhoods, schools and other institutions.
The "facts" are that whites (such as yourself and your friend Taylor) scare yourselves and other whites into believing that Black Pride is a threat to your existence, when it really is NOT!
The evidence being the rise of the "Black Suburb". Where upper-middle class blacks move to escape the crime and blight of the cities, thus whites move out because of "fear."
The true hate and fear mongerers in this country are those who are like yourself JMK. Comparing Wright to a "white supremacist" is no more than a right-wing tactic to attack Barack Obama. (The sad part is that, nowhere it can be found that Obama has written or said such things himself.)
I defy you to find once instance where Wright or any of his followers have advocated "violence" toward white people. I defy you to find once instance where a African-American organization has carried out acts of violence against "white people" equal to, or similar to those of the lynchings of the KKK, the random killings of the White Aryan Resistance, the anti black/jewish hate filled rhetoric of Stormfront, the Nazi's, or other radical white organizations.
The "fact" is JMK, is that Blacks need Black Pride. We need Black Pride to overcome the senseless killing of one another. We need Black Pride in our families to overcome the breakdown of the black family. We need Black Pride to counter the "fear" that whites have when we move into a majority white neighborhood.
You or any other white person has absolutley nothing to "fear" from Black Pride.
You and all others here should further note this right-wing rhetorical talking point;
"Were all Americans and race does not matter"
is indeed a noble ideal. Yet, it is not realistic nor practical, and is simply used to distort the racial issue in America.
Prove it to yourself... follow the link and pick which 3 of these people are American.
http://pharmacology.case.edu/department/people.jpg
>
>
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Nuff said!
There is a difference in black pride where you are trying to lift up a group of people by exhorting them to press forward with the gifts and talents that God has given. Black churches and other organizations have attempted to do that. It is another thing altogether when you are castigating other people in the process. I went to black churches most of my life. I NEVER EVER heard any vicious comments against any other races of people nor curses on our country like those made by Jeremiah Wright. The Bible says that God rejoices when mercy triumps over judgment. Wright has absolutely crossed the line.
For Obama to imply in his speech that all black churches are like this and that others just do not understand was highly offensive to me. I also take issue with the fact that people actually believe that this type of Black Liberation Theology is Christian. My point of reference is the Bible. The Bible defines what the gospel of the kingdom is. What I have seen and heard from those that espouse these beliefs, those beliefs are not from the word of God.
I have heard very little of Jeremiah Wright's comments. I have tried not to listen to them on purpose. My opinion of him and his teachings came from his original about him page on the Trinity United Church of Christ web site in 2002 or 2003 when I initially viewed the site. From what I have read that page has been changed because of the increased scrutiny. I want it clear that I was not influenced by the so-called media coverage. The church web site summed things up for me years before I ever heard about Barack Obama.
People can believe what they want to. This is the greatness of our country. However if people, especially preachers, are saying they are Christian I plan on checking out what they say against the Bible. You tell me where God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit EVER said anything like this since Christ came to the earth. You will not find one bit of this in the NT. I do not waste my hard earned cash on gambling but I would bet every dime on this and win.
I'm beginning to see some of the basis for your many misconceptions PAA. When you don't know the exact meaning of a term, you simply make it up, rather than looking it up.
The "bottomline" is a business term that refers to profit and loss... a profitable idea or venture has a good "Bottomline."
It has NOTHING to do with "known or given facts." It is purely a statement of profit and loss, about the commercial viability of an idea, it has nothing to do with whether that idea is good, or moral, etc., merely profitable.
Moreover, I showed you clearly that there is absolutely no contradiction between some GOP operatives encouraging those Republicans, in states where they could do so, to vote for Barack Obama, to get HRC out of the race, even though most GOP strategists see Obama as a more effective campaigner; (1) getting the vaunted Clinton machine out of the race outweighs mere candidate viabiloity, especially between two such highly flawed candidates as HRC and Obama and (2) Obama has an almost endless supply of skeletons to slime him with down the road.
Racial or race-based bigotry = racism.
The notion that "supremacy = racism" is a fiction. The entire "Afro-centric viewpoint is a "black supremacist viewpoint."
BUT the naive, childlike belief that your group is "the best" and "superior to all other groups" is not necessarily BIGOTED and therefore certainly not "racist."
Moreover, while Obama benefits from the view that "White bigottry is far more dangerous in places like the USA, given the population dynamics (76% of Americans are white), an Afro-centric government entity would indeed be opprerssive in EXACTLY the way that Jerry Wright saw Roman minority rule of the Hebrew majority as unjustly oppressive.
But the idea of "American Afro-centrism" is as bogus and as insipid as, say, "American Celtic-centrism."
Any true Celt from Ireland or Scotland would take a single look at any American of "Celtic-descent" and immediately recognize the VERY SAME TRUTH that any actual African would, seeing an American of "African-descent" and that is that BOTH are looking at Americans, NOT true Celts nor Africans.
You, like myself and Taduschi Mischi (a Japenese-American physicist born in NYC) are Americans, with no Celtic, African or Japanese culture left in us, no matter how much any one of us might wish it were so.
Of course neither myself nor Dr. Mischi would WANT to be anything but American. For you, the fact that you are distinctly culturally and every other way AMERICAN (Western) seems to be a problem for you.
So, again, the likes of Jerry Wright and now, James Meeks have NOTHING in common with real Christian pastors like Pat Robertson, Billy Graham or Calvin Butts (the non-Afro-centric former leader of NY's Ebeneezer baptist Church), but with the likes of Tom Metzger and the Phelps ministry, which preaches that "AIDs is God's curse on America for embracing gays."
THAT'S bigotry and that's what's HATEFUL, not any naive notions that the likes of you, CUNY Professor Len Jeffries, Tom Matzger and David Dukes have about your own groups being "superior."
If little Lenny Jeffries (as I call him....I confronted him and he backed down like a lamb) merely BELIEVES in "black supremacy" and doe not act upon that view, nor seek to counsel others to act upon that view, there is nothing innately dangerous about that quaint viewpoint.
But given that there is no more reasons, historic or otherwise, for blacks to innately hate whites, than for whites to innately hate blacks (in other words there is no more justification of bigotry on either side), BOTH white and black racial animus or bigotry ARE dangerous, repugnant and must be sanctioned by the law.
Now to be fair to myself (and I always AM), I spent two decades fighting fires in the South Bronx and in the process, got into a few scrapes with some of the more "rambunctious" locals, I've never witnessed this "white fear" that you speak of, in fact, when Ladder 44 got off the rig, it was the locals who ran from us.
OK, not myself (at a mere 5'10/180) but some of the other "monsters." Still, I, early on being one of the youngest, with the most to prove, would often, AFTER fires, challenge anyone on the street to race me up the seven or eight flights of stairs to the roof (without my SCBA/"air pak" on, but in Fire coat and boots)...and never lost, though saving face in front of a team of guys mostly bigger and more experienced than me, was a powerful incentive.
I grew up in NYC and while working in the South Bronx, lived in the Washington Heights/Inwood section of Manhattan. Of course, for most of that time I was single.
IF I had school-aged kids, like most of the people I know (white, black and Hispanic), I'd move out of the city to get my kids into better schools.
THAT is the primary reason why whites and more well-off blacks have left the cities. The OTHER reasons are even more DIRECTLY economic.
Another reason, had been declining property values when "Ghettofication" of a neighborhood occurred.
It's, ironically ENOUGH, the EXACT OPPOSITE of what's been happening over the past twenty years - "GENTRIFICAION." That's where white urban professionals move back into the city and make formerly "low income neighborhoods" unaffordable to those same "lower income people."
Huge swaths of Brooklyn have been re-claimed or "Gentrified" under both Giuliani and Bloomberg and much of Harlem has gone the same way.
And blacks move FROM those neighborhoods for the same reasons whites moved from the cities in the 50's, 60's and 70's - ECONOMICS. When home values drop due to "Ghettofication," it does irrepairable harm to the original home-owners, as they lose the value in the largest investment of their lives. Likewise, during "Gentrification," property values go back up and rents rise along with them, so that poorer and "low income" people can no longer afford to live in those areas.
BUT low income blacks and whites are harmed a LOT LESS by "Gentrification," than their home-owning counterparts are harmed during "Ghettofication," as they aren't losing the value of a lifetime's (often their ONLY major) investment.
Its simple economics, in FACT, even "SCHOOL PREFERENCE" is really an economic issue....nothing at all "racially motivated" about any of that.
"The "fact" is JMK, is that Blacks need Black Pride." (PAA)
Again, utter, senseless NONSENSE.
There's absolutely NOTHING to be proud about over the many "accidents of birth" - being born, male, female, Asian, black, white, Catholic, Atheist or Baptist, or even incredibly intelligent (such as myself) or stultifyingly simple-minded (as, say, the likes of Jerry Wright, Tom Metzger or James Meeks)...these are all accidents of birth. It's what we DO with what abilities and talents we're given that's a rightful source of pride.
What WE ALL NEED is SELF-PRIDE.
Pride in our own achievements and accomplishments that have NOTHING to do with race, gender, religion or basic intellect.
Just as there are people born with meager athletic abilities who get the most out of those abilities and become professional athletes, there are people born to meager intellectual gifts who LEARN, through arduous hard work, how to invest, how to start a business and then CREATE things that surpass the achievements of people born a lot smarter.
It's not "pride" that leads you to think the likes of Wright, Meeks, Sharpton, etc. are "not racists," it's your own deep-seated insecurities. We all have our crosses to bear, so good luck with all that.
What I won't let go uncorrected is your comparing vile bigots, like Wright, Meeks, etc., to the likes of Robertson, the late Jerry Falwell, or even scholars like Charles Murray and Jared Taylor.
The FACT is that Wright, Meeks, etc. are best compared to OTHER BIGOTS (like Metzger), just as controversial scholars, like Murray and Taylor are best compared to other controversial scholars, like Claude Steele.
"follow the link and pick which 3 of these people are American.
http://pharmacology.case.edu/department/people.jpg" (PAA)
That proves absolutely NOTHING.
For one thing, I COULD not pick out who was "African-American," as any of the three could've been Carribean born or native to Africa and thus NOT culturally "American."
Moreover, I could also pick out all the Asians in that picture and could also NOT TELL merely by looking, which ones were Asian-Americans, who are culturally and every OTHER way AMERICAN, or those born in parts of Asia and thus members of another, non-Western culture.
Walter E Williams is 100% right, "ALL blacks born in America are culturally European (Western), as that is the predominant foundation of American culture."
An American-born black has no more place in sub-Saharan Africa, then does an American-born "Irish-American have a place back in Ireland. BOTH those Americans are distinctly culturally American and have absolutely no roots to the culture of their long gone ancestors.
Again, merely more of the basis for your many misconceptions on display.
JMK states; "The "bottomline" is a business term that refers to profit and loss... a profitable idea or venture has a good "Bottomline."
Hmmmm...now it's a business term???
It wasn't a business term when you asked, "I don't know who this "bottomline" guy is (a rapper?), but he's wrong."
Now you're attempting to play a silly game of semantics, when at first you took the term as the "metaphor" for which it was meant. If the "bottom line" (as YOU replied) is a "guy" (or rapper) why would "YOU simply make it up, rather than looking it up?"
It's that type of lofty and pompous duplicity that make me not trust you, or your sincerity.
Now, the "bottom line" I was referring to (metaphorically) are the known "facts" as I pointed out to you...nothing else, just the facts. That's what I said, that's what I meant!
JMK mutters; "The notion that "supremacy = racism" is a fiction. The entire "Afro-centric viewpoint is a "black supremacist viewpoint."
This is the dumbest, and most duplicitous statement you have made to date JMK.
What you're saying is "white-supremacy" is not racism and perfectly fine in your mind, yet, black pride, Afro-centrism, black anything (except American pride) is unacceptable!
Your silly statement is made out of FEAR!!!
You've heard of the Rev. Jesse Lee Peterson, right? For all the imbecilic, moronic, ignorant, and foolish things this sub-illiterate says, he has one thing right. That is that most whites in this country "fear" blacks. Perhaps not for the exact same reasons as he gives, but "fear" nevertheless.
JMK waffles; "Moreover, I could also pick out all the Asians in that picture and could also NOT TELL merely by looking, which ones were Asian-Americans"
Silly boy, you proved my point!!!
If I told you that I am a misogynist and I truly believe that "all" women are sluts. You give me a picture showing 20 different women, some large, some thin, some tall, some short, some dressed provocatively, some dressed conservatively and some in a habit and robe. What answer would you "expect" if you asked me to pick which 3 were "sluts"?
If race was not "a matter" (or of any importance) you could have simply replied; "THEY ARE ALL, OR IF THEY SO DESIRED TO BECOME, THEY COULD ALL BE AMERICANS!
You could'nt say that because you don't think that way. Thus, "you" don't even believe what you're attempting to "push" onto me. Most of what you say is incorporated and embodied in "FEAR".
JMK continues; "who are culturally and every OTHER way AMERICAN, or those born in parts of Asia and thus members of another, non-Western culture."
America is not a homogeneous society. Despite your deceptive ideas to the contrary, the United States is a multiracial, multicultural society.
More JMK; "Walter E Williams is 100% right, "ALL blacks born in America are culturally European (Western), as that is the predominant foundation of American culture."
Not this garbage again...You know my opinion, no need to go further.
Oh BTW, Walter Williams is an idiot!
Reverend Wright is a vile racist. There are more ethnicities in this nation than blacks and whites.
There are asians,arabs,latinos, Native American and etc. etc,.
It's also because of him that Barrack Obama's campaign is sunk or yet to be sunk!
And for Cult Leader Wright's information I dislike Rudy and McCain and Mrs. Clinton more than Barrack Obama !
PAA you misused the term "bottomline" and I tried to use humor ("Who's this bottomline guy, a rapper") to get you to notice that, but apparently to no avail.
Yes, it IS and always HAS BEEN a "business term." It relates to profitability, not rightness or wrongness.
Not to appaer too "lofty" or anything, but the term I believe you're searching for, if you mean, "known or established fact," is "a priori."
As in it's a priori fact that it's logical that some GOP operatives would like both Hillary Clinton out of the race, despite recognizing the fact that Barack Obama has some skills that make him, in some ways, a more formidable candidate. The slime-power of the Clinton machine is why they desperately want the Clinton's out of the race. Figuring that Obama's inexperience and many skeletons may well undo him in the general election.
Why do I have to simplify things to the power of ten for most Liberals.
And again, I hope I'm not getting "too lofty," with such statements.
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Apparently you did not understand the problem with the question you asked about the picture you linked to...AS I said, "You CAN'T tell how many African-Americans are in that picture, as you cannot tell how many dark complexioned people in that picture were born here in America, a FACT that would make them AMERICAN and NOT African."
An Asian born here is as American as you and I and shares our COMMON CULTURE and our COMMON LANGUAGE. In short, an "Asian-American is an AMERICAN culturally, lingusitically, etc., SAME as any white or black BORN here in America.
The reason you can't simply say something like, "That's not true, an Asian born in America is STILL culturally Asian," is because you know that's simply NOT the case. An Asian born here in America is as culturally American/Western/European (as Dr Williams would rightly say) as YOU and I.
Look, you DO NOT have a distinct culture. A distinct culture requires a distinct language and cultural milieu. You speak the same language, wear the same kinds of clothes, eat the same kinds of foods, and share the same mass produced "American entertainment" as an Asian-American born in San Francisco, CA., or a white "NASCAR Dad" born in Augusta, GA.
Me TOO!!!
We're AMERICANS after all.
The fact that you don't understand that very simple concept makes it easy to see how you'd so flippantly misuse terms like "bottomline," compare vile bigots like Jeremiah Wright to actual Christian ministers such as Pat Robertson and Calvin Butts, and consider Professor Walter E. Williams (a far more learned man than mere mortals, such as you & I) to be "an idiot."
Many people make the mistake of thinking that those whom they can't understand must be "idiots."
It's rooted in a lack of self-reflection or introspection. Such a person believes that "the problem can't be theirs, so it must be on the part of the person whose arguments they can't comrehend."
That should, if you think about it, sound familiar, that is, if you ever bother listening to yourself.
JMK states: "PAA you misused the term "bottomline" and I tried to use humor ("Who's this bottomline guy, a rapper") to get you to notice that, but apparently to no avail."
Boy oh boy...
I used the term "metaphorically." I believe you realize that, but for some "stupid" reason you wish to defend your position. (perhaps to appeal to the other readers on this thread????)
You wrote: "Sarcasm alert"
sarcasm- 1: a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain
2 a: a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual b: the use or language of sarcasm
Suddenly it's...."humor"????????
humor- : something that is or is designed to be comical or amusing
Which is it, humor or sarcasm? Better still..., whats your "bottom line?"
JMK replies; "Apparently you did not understand the problem with the question you asked about the picture you linked to...AS I said, "You CAN'T tell how many African-Americans are in that picture..." blah, blah, blah, ect...
Hmmmmm? Now I see why you posed the philosophical terms "a priori" and "a posteriori."
My question, using the photo, was a simple exercise in deductive logic.
Whereas, if one truly believes that;
"race doesn't matter as we are "all" Americans."
When "my" question is asked, common sense (and honesty) would lead you to deduce, (or to infer from a general principle), that therefore;
"all" of those in the photo "are" or "can be" Americans.
If you really believed and thought "race doesn't matter", you could have indicated that "any 3 people" regardless of what race they were, or what they were wearing! Instead you went into a nonsensical diatribe in attempt to excuse your ignorance.
Much to often Ive heard "right-wingers", such as yourself proffer; "race doesn't matter, we are all Americans." What you're upset about is that my little exercise (test) proves that "you" don't really believe it. You simply repeat it as a "right-wing-talking-point" because of it's "all appeasing" intrinsic political value.
Look JMK, I posed the question with a specific answer in mind. You got it wrong!! Man-up, accept it, move on....
Simply put, the idea that "race doesnt matter" in America is a lie told by right-wingers like you to appease some, and subsequently distort the problems and issues we face in America. And that's "the bottom line"!!!!!!
Yes PAA, indeed sarcasm is a form of humor (in fact, satire itself, is a form of humor), just as surely as bottom-line refers to profitability.
I’ve never suggested that “race doesn’t matter in America,” so I don’t know where you get that foolishness, though THAT does NOT imply that there isn’t a DISTINCT and SINGULAR “American Culture.”
There is!
I know that race matters, all too well. Racial preferences and set-asides and the use of flawed concepts like “disparate impact,” which has been recently successfully challenged in our courts, are examples of race “mattering” in some very negative ways.
My wife who IS NOT an African-American (being born and raised in Jamaica) works in the private sector, as a manager in a Big Four Accounting firm. On almost every interview she’s ever had she’s had good results. She’s very good at what she does and her race and gender don’t overtly hurt her.
Is there the possibility that moving up might be harder, in such a firm, for a woman or a racial minority. There are certainly very few black partners, BUT the firm is rife with female partners, and there are a significant number of Asian partners, as well, so the evidence cuts both ways.
The problem is that the standards for advancement in such fields tend to be relatively subjective. Could a worker who is also a member of a racial minority have a harder time getting excellent performance evaluations, as opposed to just very good ones?
I don’t know, and the available evidence does not seem to conclusively prove that either way.
On the other hand, I’ve spent nearly twenty-three years in the FDNY and like all such Civil Service positions, the evaluation procedure is a lot more objective for such jobs. Standardized exams both written and physical are used for entrance into such jobs and written exams are used for promotions.
There has never been any evidence of the existence of a thing called “test bias,” as no one from any group that’s ever charged that has ever been able to indicate a single question on which that “mythical thing” exists. Moreover, ethnic groups that tend to claim test bias (ie. African-Americans) tend to do comparatively WORSE on the math portions of standardized exams, like the SAT, then they do on the verbal section, which one would presume might be more open to this thing called “test bias.”
As a result, black racial bigots have consistently fought against standardized written exams, first using “test bias,” and then, upon losing that battle, on “disparate impact.”
BUT disparate impact (disproportionate pass/fail rates for differing ethnic groups) DOES NOT evidence nor indicate any actual or real “ethnic discrimination.” Over the last decade, the very flawed legal concept of “disparate impact” has come under scrutiny and thus under fire and as a result, the same racial bigots have fallen to yet another fall-back position, now arguing, using Claude Steele’s mythical concept of “test anxiety,” whereby many otherwise high performing blacks supposedly do worse on standardized exams because they perceive that they are expected to fail.
No, I’ve never said “race DOESN’T matter in America,” I’ve merely asserted that we should not even count the numbers of blacks, whites, Asians, Hispanics, etc., who get into various schools, jobs, etc. I’ve suggested that we simply CEASE “counting by race.”
If you want to eliminate racial animus/bigotry simply STOP counting by race!
But there is no question that “race matters in America." People defending black versions of Tom Metzger (Jeremiah Wright and James Meeks) is another such example of that.
As I said, “racism = racial animus or bigotry, NOTHING else.” I reject any other definition and refuse to discuss such, as that tends to merely enable bigotry.
In that regard, racism BOTH black and white exists in America.
So, of course I never said “race doesn’t matter,” it matters to BOTH blacks and whites and just about everyone else here. Just as I never said, “America is a homogenous country.” Again, where’d you get that? Oh yeah, you made it up.
Of course a mono-cultural nation (which America certainly IS) does NOT have to be homogeneous (mono-ethnic).
You do recognize that rather simple and all too obvious FACT, don’t you?
What we DO have in America is a common language, a common cultural milieu (common food, entertainment, etc.), thus a common AMERICAN culture.
An African-American whose family’s been here two hundred years is actually, if that's possible, even LESS “African” than is a third generation Irish, Japanese or German American. Suffice to say, none of those third generation Americans could return to their ancestral homelands and be considered anything OTHER than “American.” Same goes for any “African-American" born and raised here in the good’ol USA.
You argued that American blacks have a separate and distinct CULTURE...I’ve shown you very clearly that they DO NOT, any more than “NASCAR nation” or Asian-Americans have a separate and distinct culture – they DO NOT.
You also argued that it was contradictory to point out the verifiable FACT that some GOP operatives encouraged GOP voters in states where they could do so, to vote AGAINST Hillary Clinton, despite the fact that Barack Obama has some skill sets superior to Hillary’s that would make him potentially a more formidable candidate. There’s NOTHING contradictory about that strategy, as I’ve pointed out, and I don’t even subscribe to that strategy, as (1) I’m a Conservative (very Conservative) Democrat and (2) Elections are, in some regards, like ball games, any given team can beat any other, at the right time...so there’s no sense plotting who the “more formidable candidate” is. Most elections hinge on events unforeseen at the time candidates are nominated anyway.
Getting the Clinton’s slime machine out of this race, however, is a sound strategy, at least for the GOP.
My answer to your question about that picture, that, “You CANNOT tell who in that picture is American-born,” is the ONLY answer that has any meaning. It WOULD be wrong and thus my entire worldview would be admittedly wrong IF, it could be shown/proven that race = culture, or even that there are “separate and distinct cultures” (not mere cultural sub-groups, like “NASCAR Nation,” “the hip-hop community,” etc.), BUT there are NO/ZERO separate and distinct cultures within America.
We have ONE single, over-riding culture, a single UNIFYING language, and thus a basic Western, or more specifically American culture.
A MINO—make that MAJOR CORRECTION:
“What you're saying is "white-supremacy" is not racism and perfectly fine in your mind, yet, black pride, Afro-centrism, black anything (except American pride) is unacceptable! (PAA)
OK, I’m going out on a limb here and I’m going to presume you’re merely ignorant (failing to understand due to a lack of facts) and NOT stupid (unable to understand, due to a lack of basic comprehension) - WE (that’s YOU and I) like all of the current population of the earth are “children of the Western-world.” The Western or Northern European mindset swept over the world beginning about a Millennium ago and that conquest was completed with the Colonial Era, appx. 500 years AGO! Ergo, We are ALL Westerners NOW. In fact, we have all BEEN Westerners for a number of generations, now.
It doesn’t matter that your long ago forebears were African people who, like the American Indians and the Celtic Irish (the last tribal whites of Europe) were adherants of communalist, tribalist cultures that saw earth as “man’s parent and provider,” ALL those groups LOST the great debate.
They lost, largely because they fought, primarily the English, with bows & arrows and spears, while the British used guns to drive home their finer points.
And while it was a rousing debate, one that concluded with the devastation of the last tribalists (the American Indians) on earth, in the latter part of the 19th century, it was both ideologically and fire-power wise, a rather one-sided affair.
Suffice to say, We are ALL Westerners NOW! And THAT’S why your above statement is both insipid (stupid) and inane (ignorant/illogical).
The FACT is that “racism” = ANY racial bigotry or animus on ANYONE’S part.
Neither the idiotic ideas of black supremacy, white supremacy, or Asian-supremacy are themselves “racist,” as one could, for instance, believe that “Asians are superior people,” WITHOUT holding any animus or bigotry for other groups.
As I said, black bigots like to PRETEND that there is some historical/cultural context in which blacks have a reason to hate/fear whites, but not the reverse, but since NO ONE has actually been able to make a historical/cultural case for that, the imbecilic redefining of “racism” to “power differentials,” and the “implied belief in racial superiority,” has become the last hiding place of today’s most vile racial bigots.
And, not to put too fine a point on it, it would be YOU, who are far closer to that line than anyone else around here.
For instance, I regard scholars, no matter how controversial, scholars from Charles Murray and Jared Taylor to Claude Steele as scholars, while I regard “racists” (racial bigots) from Tom Metzger to Jeremiah Wright, to Louis Farrakhan to David Dukes to James Meeks as bigots.
I’ve never referred to Claude Steele, with whom I consistently and vehemently disagree, a “racist,” or a bigot. He is, in fact, a scholar, yes a scholar who is as controversial in HIS views as Jared Taylor is in his, but a scholar, none-the-less.
YOU, on the other hand, have excoriated the likes of Murray and Taylor as “racists,” which they are not, and compared Jermemiah Wright to Pat Robertson, in an inept attempt to defend Wright’s blatant Metzgerian bigotry.
And yes, that's a problem for you.
Yes, indeed Pamela, there is a huge difference between espousing self-respect and blaming others for every ill that befalls a group.
Personally, I DON’T much like the concept of ethnic pride, because it’s “pride” based on an “accident of birth.”
None of us controlled our being born male, female, black, white, Asian, or Hispanic, etc., so NONE of those things are ACHIVEMENTS.
And that’s what we should take pride in, our personal achievements and things we’ve forged through hard work. No one ever had to work to become black or white.
I’d agree with you that that’s where the Obama camp has seemed to have gone off the rails - their throwing all other black Churches under the proverbial bus, claiming that “Reverend Wright’s remarks were no atypical of things you’d hear in any black Church,” was reprehensible and it needlessly slimed black Churches that have had a long history of good works and community leadership.
AND there is a huge difference between Christianity and “Liberation Theology,” which is Communist dialects dressed up as religion.
Liberation Theology is a cult based in misanthropic hatred and the petty envies of the tribalist/communalist viewpoint.
JMK" Personally, I DON’T much like the concept of ethnic pride, because it’s “pride” based on an “accident of birth.”
I've been saying that for years JMK. Thats the primary reason why I am so grounded when it comes to race. There are people in the world that are so manipulated to have pride in something they never had a choice in. I've always made the arguement that a person's skin color isn't a factor if he or she will go to heaven or hell. Should I be "proud" that my height is 5'll instead of 5'10? Pride is a feeling of self-respect and personal worth. In my 35 years of existance, never once have I linked my skin color to my sense of worth or self respect.
JMK "None of us controlled our being born male, female, black, white, Asian, or Hispanic, etc., so NONE of those things are ACHIVEMENTS.
And that’s what we should take pride in, our personal achievements and things we’ve forged through hard work. No one ever had to work to become black or white."
I agree. If people of all races would come to grips with that which is so obvious, there actually would be "peace on earth". Why is it that children of all different races" can play together with not a care in the world, yet when they grow up they are infused with all this crap about race? Our society generation after generation have been manipulated by OTHER PEOPLE'S "pride" about race.
JMK"AND there is a huge difference between Christianity and “Liberation Theology,” which is Communist dialects dressed up as religion"
I call it trojan horse theology. It's nothing more then bastardizing the Christian religion and reshaping it into something no true Christian would recognize.
#1 God deserves much more honor and praise. Please make sure you Capitalize his name when referencing him. Your "About Me" read it is there.
If you listen to the beginning of his message you should understand where he is coming from as the white people that have been and were part of the congregation at times.
And we all know the only reason we are in Iraq is because the president took advantage of us not having a draft. I guarantee you a draft would bring an end to the war because the supposed so proud of our soldiers group now would have to sit and worry about their 18-22 yr old son/daughter being killed.
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