Saturday, August 10, 2013

The failure of Detroit: Liberalism's Ground Zero Part 1

I heard right before Detroit's bankruptcy which made it the biggest municipal bankruptcy in American history, that the Mayor met with one it's biggest creditors. Let's just say that the meeting didn't go very well.



A few years ago, Steven Crowder made a video documentary about the dire situation that was facing the city of Detroit. Liberals of course attacked him venomously and called him every name imaginable. In the end, it turned out that Crowder was right on target all along about the grim situation that faced Detroit. For those of you who didn't see his work, I highly recommend it. Liberalism is a social and economic cancer that destroys cities.



Of course the left lashed out against Steven Crowder. What could they have possibly said in their defense to why Detroit turned into what it had become? Since the bankruptcy filing, I've heard idiots like Ed Schultz and others actually tried to blame the Republican Party for Detroit's failure?



 I don't believe a Republican was a part of Detroit's political process in the last 50 years. I've heard other absurd explanations from the left  such as saying that "Detroit didn't spend ENOUGH money".. That is what the kook leftists so called economist Paul Krugman said. I'm not really sure how  libertarians fit into this, but they were also included into the find the scapegoat pot.



Detroit when it filed for Chapter 9 bankruptcy reportedly had over 100,000 creditors it owed money to. Liberals have been saying that in order to create economic growth, the government must "spend money"and that debt spending was needed. If that was the case then shouldn't the Keynesian economic model have made Detroit and economic powerhouse?

25 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

For years, through the eyes of the entertainment industry, Detroit has been a butt-end of all jokes that it would become some sort of dystophian society.

The first joke I remember was from an "Enter The Dragon" satire where the main villain, instead of going to torture a fearless CIA agent, he decides to send him to Detroit, where the CIA agent panics and pleas for his life. The villain's fortress was so bad, it was considered far worse than Detroit. That same gag was repeated in "Airplane!" where the main character was having a flashback in a sleazy bar. Anyway, "KFM" was put out by the likes of Jerry and David Zucker and Jim Abrams who did "Airplane!" and the "Naked Gun" series.

On a serious note, I think Hollywood did have a premonition that Detroit was getting so bad, they did featured it in "Robocop".

-Big Pop

3:26 AM  
Blogger p. anthony allen said...

Detroit once had almost 2 million residents. Most of the people who came here (like my grandparents) came here to "WORK." They were "hardworking, self supporting people who took PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY" for themselves and their families. My parents were the same, as I am, and continue to be. However, what my grandparents, parents and to a certain extent myself, were able to accomplish in Detroit, is nearly impossible for the present generation. Where's the liberalism?

According to your analogy Tyrone, it was "liberalism" that caused the failure of Detroit. So instead of taking Steve Crowders word, lets take a look at what really happened.

Many poor and uneducated people from all over the country came to Detroit to work in the auto industry. Just as mechanization of the coal mines and logging forests of Appalachia caused outmigration and distress, Detroit suffer's from the similar fate. The beginning of the population loss in Detroit directly coincided with the height of the "Second Great Migration (1940-1970)" of Blacks from the rural south to the northern cities.
Please point out the liberalism...

I read a paper a couple of years ago written by a U of M undergrad.

"Another line of research closely linked to the work on citizen participation
assesses the effectiveness of Model Cities programming in addressing the claims of minority residents
(Hetzel, 1971). Harrison (1974) finds that cities with more developed bureaucracies and stronger mayors were more likely to violate federal guidelines requiring them to hire residents of model neighborhood areas, and that overall there was racial discrimination in hiring for Model Cities projects"
.
-Jody H. Schechter.

I found it quite telling that Schechter would come to the exact same findings that I and many other Detroit's saw occurring at the time.

The Model Cities Program (at least here in Detroit) was just another way for local politicians and their cronies to enrich themselves. Although the government policy was indeed a "liberal" effort aimed at improving the plight of the poor, the implementation was far from "liberal." In fact a large portion of the money was used to demolish well established black neighborhoods, and relocate the residents into housing projects.

Now for the "seemingly purposeful" omissions in Crowder's story. If you look closely at the 2:57 mark of his video, you will see a marquee (Carleton Elementary) in the background. On the marquee it reads "School re-opens Jan, 4 2010. That indicates that Crowders video was done sometime in late 2009 or early 2010.

Crowder states "students in Detroit receive on average $11,100 per student." In reality in 2009/10 Detroit students received $7660 per student. What Crowder does here is tack on administrative cost, teacher salaries, extra curricular activities, transportation and school lunch programs.

Now, if we take a look at Bloomfield Hills, located in the richest per-capita county in the state, $12,443 was spent per student in the same year. Now take on the same cost which Crowder neglected to point out. Where's the liberalism in Bloomfield Hills?

And the crazy notion the auto workers make $70.00 an hour? Allow people who know the truth to explain.

12:27 PM  
Anonymous Eddie said...

The Truth About Detroit's Bankruptcy

http://youtu.be/y9sTiB6JAiQ

8:22 PM  
Anonymous Eddie said...

Detroit, a Libertarian City. Those fools. Anyone with half a brain knows that the Statist Socialists are responsible for this non-sense. I hate to use the word Liberal because it is taken out of context as it really means Liberty, Freedom, Classical Liberalism.

8:28 PM  
Blogger Alpha Conservative Male said...

p allen "Detroit once had almost 2 million residents. Most of the people who came here (like my grandparents) came here to "WORK."

People try to find work regardless allen.

p allen "They were "hardworking, self supporting people who took PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY" for themselves and their families. My parents were the same, as I am, and continue to be. However, what my grandparents, parents and to a certain extent myself, were able to accomplish in Detroit, is nearly impossible for the present generation. Where's the liberalism?"

Hard working people who take responsibility for themselves and their families isn't liberalism allen, I agree with that, but that generation in which included your grandparents was in a by gone era compared to the generations of the last thirty years.
You want to see the liberalism mindset that helped destroy Detroit?
Looking for the government to help them and in the end as predicted, they put their faith and trust in the wrong people.
?

9:27 PM  
Blogger Alpha Conservative Male said...


p allen "Many poor and uneducated people from all over the country came to Detroit to work in the auto industry. Just as mechanization of the coal mines and logging forests of Appalachia caused outmigration and distress, Detroit suffer's from the similar fate. The beginning of the population loss in Detroit directly coincided with the height of the "Second Great Migration (1940-1970)" of Blacks from the rural south to the northern cities.
Please point out the liberalism..."

The population of forty to fifty years ago in Detroit had completely different values then the population that resides in there now allen, and you know it. 1. The municipal unions didn't have a foot hold into strong arming the local government into entering into union contracts that were unsustainable 2. Residents in Detroit left out of the city not only due to work, they left because of "quality of life issues" that deteriorated over the decades, just like most U.S Metropolitan cities. There are many U.S cities that are going through the same thing Detroit is allen, so blaming Detroit's failure on the auto industry and other factors is weak.

p allen "
Now for the "seemingly purposeful" omissions in Crowder's story. If you look closely at the 2:57 mark of his video, you will see a marquee (Carleton Elementary) in the background. On the marquee it reads "School re-opens Jan, 4 2010. That indicates that Crowders video was done sometime in late 2009 or early 2010. "

You don't get it allen, you are still trying to take issue with the messenger instead of the overall message. DETROIT IS BANKRUPT, that was the message of Crowder. You want to talk about a single school? Talk about the real issues facing the Detroit Public School System
How about reports saying that Only 7% of Detroit Public-School 8th Graders Proficient in Reading - See more at: http://cnsnews.com/news/article/only-7-detroit-public-school-8th-graders-proficient-reading#sthash.NitpCHOx.dpuf yet your issue is with Steven Crowder being wrong about one school being closed? For the amount of money that Detroit receives per student and with the results that it has yielded, there is the problem. There are parents who home school their kids for nothing and their academic scores rival or even surpass that of student schooled in the public education system. Here in Baltimore, over $10,000 a year is spent per student, and the test results are equally dismal as that of those in Detroit. So the "not enough money" argument doesn't cut the cheese either allen.

p allen "And the crazy notion the auto workers make $70.00 an hour? Allow people who know the truth to explain."

It doesn't matter allen, again you are barking up the wrong tree. Those jobs in which union auto makers were making whatever amount of money weren't people who were mostly residents of Detroit. I bet most of the Michigan Auto Workers who work for Ford, Government Motors and Fiat-Chrysler live "OUTSIDE Detroit". Just curious, how any auto production plants are in the city limits of Detroit allen

9:27 PM  
Blogger Alpha Conservative Male said...

p allen "Now for the "seemingly purposeful" omissions in Crowder's story. If you look closely at the 2:57 mark of his video, you will see a marquee (Carleton Elementary) in the background. On the marquee it reads "School re-opens Jan, 4 2010. That indicates that Crowders video was done sometime in late 2009 or early 2010. "

Focus on the match folks not the house that is engulfed in fire right allen?

9:32 PM  
Blogger p. anthony allen said...

CB;"People try to find work regardless allen.
OR,
but that generation in which included your grandparents was in a by gone era compared to the generations of the last thirty years.
You want to see the liberalism mindset that helped destroy Detroit"?
.

Those two statement directly contradict. How can you say one, then claim the other is true also?

The economic crisis of 2008 hit Detroit hard. Being that Detroit was a trouble long before 2008, doesn't that video make sense?

Everyone is well aware of the decline in low skilled manufacturing jobs in the U.S. You're also aware of the huge decline in auto industry jobs of which Detroit was built. Still, you have conservatives complain that auto workers were paid too much. And, poor people are clamoring for government assistance when jobs are scarce. You people don't make any sense!

CB;"The population of forty to fifty years ago in Detroit had completely different values then the population that resides in there now allen, and you know it.".

Really? There you go again!!! Talking out of both sides of your mouth! How can you say liberal policies were the order of the day in Detroit during the 60's and 70s, and also say liberal policies are the order now, BUT, claim the values were different then, than now? You're constantly spitting out contradictions!!

CB;"You don't get it allen, you are still trying to take issue with the messenger instead of the overall message".

No Tyrone... you don't get it. Crowders message is purely political. He doesn't give a damn about one kid in the Detroit Public School system. Crowder's agenda in the piece is to attack a political structure. Grant it, it might need to be attacked, but not with more "MISINFORMATION and PROPAGANDA."

The point of his attack on the school systems spending, was not to address the poor achievement. Hell, we already know about that. His purpose was to attack the money being spent...the TAX DOLLARS! (something conservatives hate to spend on inner city kids) His angle is all about the MONEY, which is exactly the same as the crooks who run the school system.

Since his angle is no less dubious than there's, I don't trust his as much or even more than the crooks that are presently in charge.

4:01 AM  
Blogger p. anthony allen said...

Steve Crowder says; "Auto workers make $74.00 pr/hr in salary and benefits."

Tyrone says, "It doesn't matter allen"!

Well, this much we do know... it's NOT TRUE! So, the truth doesn't matter to you...

The average auto worker makes about $25.00 pr/hr with a benefit package worth about $16.00 pr/hr. If I were an auto worker that made almost $50.00 an hour in benefits, I'd petition the company to drop the benefits programs, and pay it directly to me! Hell, I'd take an extra $40, $30... even $20! And set up my own benefits package.

I'm not attacking Crowder. I'm simply pointing out that he has an agenda. Like every other political hack (left and right) he has to distort the facts to get his point across, and gain the support of the low information "know-nothings."

3:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Detroit's motto: Speramus Meliora; Resurget Cineribus, which translates to "We Hope For Better Things; It Shall Rise From the Ashes".

Pretty ironic, don't you think? I hope things turn out well at the end.

-Big Pop

2:12 AM  
Anonymous Indigo said...

p allen "Where's the liberalism?"

Conservatism: Personal accountability under God-based tradition, morality and legality / Capitalistic free enterprise with minimum government laws, regulations and taxes / Preserve safety net for the truly needy, with incentive to avoid making it permanent to the recipient / Right to not have job controlled by union which uses dues money and influence to support liberal agenda (which is a blatant attempt to corrode conservative values of employees) / Strong national defense prepared to defeat invasion or threat to security by fanatics, dictators, or mob ruled countries / Weakness: Gap between top and bottom, especially in high tech age where technology cost more money / Strength: Holds the individual accountable for his conduct, and parents responsible for training their children to be accountable.

Liberalism: Or as one above commentor put it, statist socialism (classic liberalism such as during JFK included traditional family support & strong defense) / Beyond safety net, making it permanent (those living on benefits hardly ever give them up willingly, and will protest, or fight, or become hateful if benefits are stopped, or other people's money runs out) / Government largess to those who qualify (bar gets lower, such as illegal immigrants, and slaves who sell their soul, get benefits (while out of work honest good Americans get denied full time work, health insurance, retirement and pensions) / Laws passed to support group rights (1974-1994 Detroit mayor vulgar mouth Coleman Young, with his black race based ideology, drove out of town the tax base of affluent whites) / America treated as the devil around the world, with apologies / Man-based opinion poll rule, such as with trying to bring homosexuals under marriage (just forget God) / Weakness: Lack of checks and balances for corruption and abuse of political system / Strength: Except for maybe putting a check on extremist so-called “conservatives” and haters, right now I don't see any strength to “liberalism” which is why their empires are falling and crumbling into bankruptcy.

Note: Both republicans and George W. Bush (including Hank Paulson, that big phony former head of Goldman Sachs and then Treasury Sec. under Bush41), and democrats and Obama, are at fault, who bailed out those incompetent and corruptly managed businesses, instead of sending those psychopathic corrupt Wall Street finaciers to the curb (while Martha Stewart goes to jail for lying, not a one of them went to jail for their $billions in insider fraud and use of political leverage to further swindle US taxpayers).

In Detroit, Michigan over the past fifty years that type of liberalism has been supported by their mayors, city councils, police chiefs and school superintendents, and the voting population which kept electing them and nominating them. Ed Schultz in blaming republicans shows he is a total idiot.

There's the “liberalism,” that is, current day leftist, progressive democrats such as supported Gore, Kerry, and Obama.

9:51 AM  
Blogger p. anthony allen said...

CB;"Only 7% of Detroit Public-School 8th Graders Proficient in Reading"
and,
Here in Baltimore, over $10,000 a year is spent per student, and the test results are equally dismal as that of those in Detroit
.

One in six Marylanders (400,000 to 500,000 adults) are estimated to be functionally illiterate; almost half of them are in Baltimore City, and many of them are parents.

Of five schools in the state of Maryland that experienced double digit drops in scores on the Maryland State Assessments, four of those schools were in Baltimore.

And you don't see a pattern? Did you know that Detroit schools had a balanced budget (and a surplus) when the state took over in 1999? Did you know that Detroit students test scores fell even further after the state take over. When the state turned limited reigns back over to the elected school board, the finances were in shambles, and test scores were literally at a free fall.

It's a pattern Tyrone. The politicians don't care about educating the poor, and particularly the poor minority.

12:05 PM  
Blogger Ed Brown said...

I wonder why conservatives want to ignore that Detroit lost jobs because of the car companies DELIBERATELY building cars which they designed to break down. It was called planned obsolescence.

The jobs were lost as a direct result and the money going to the Detroit coffers was also lost.

Liberalism didn't call for the implementation of planned obsolescence.

But you would rather go talking points.

9:19 PM  
Blogger Alpha Conservative Male said...

Ed Brown "I wonder why conservatives want to ignore that Detroit lost jobs because of the car companies DELIBERATELY building cars which they designed to break down. It was called planned obsolescence."

And if I asked you to provide evidence to back up your ridiculous absertion, you would would be able to? In the 1980's, the Japanesse automakers such as Toyotoa, Datsun(Nissan) Honda were crushing the American automakers and taking their market share due to the Asian quality being far and beyond that of the American auto makers. Apparently the Japanese auto makers didn't get the memo about "planned obsolesce". Further more, your claim is weak based on the fact that the American auto quality didn't really start going down until the late 70's into the 80's. Most American cars were made from Steel not fiberglass and were made to last.

Ed Brown "
The jobs were lost as a direct result and the money going to the Detroit coffers was also lost. "

I'll ask this question to you Ed. What was the percentage of the population of the city Detroit that worked for GM, Chrysler and Ford 30 years ago and what is it now in 2013? This is where you respond with a "what"?

Ed Brown "Liberalism didn't call for the implementation of planned obsolescence.But you would rather go talking points."

I don't know where you came from, but thanks for the entertainment, I really enjoyed it, but you should really do your research before engaging me. Anyone who follows finance knows that the reason Detroit went under is the same reason why Stockton, Compton and San Bernadino have gone under. Again, do your research. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jacob-adlerstein/detroit-bankruptcy-pensions_b_3643995.html Sorry, but no "talking points" are needed. Try tuning in to CNBC, Fox Business, Bloomberg, Forbes, Investor Business Daily, Wall Street Journal etc and bring yourself up to speed on what's going on. Unfunded Pensions are the biggest financial threat to cities and towns. Let me school at little bit more just for kicks. Debt balloons for Chicago-area pension plans Your talking point comment was cute, too bad it lacked substance Ed.


1:25 AM  
Blogger Alpha Conservative Male said...

p allen "It's a pattern Tyrone. The politicians don't care about educating the poor, and particularly the poor minority."

Yet the irony is that the poor minority students grow up to support the very (progressive) politicians who didn't give a dam about educating them in the first place, go figure that one allen, because I sure can't.It floors me when I heard Obama and Raham Emmanuel talking up public schools yet they both have their own kids in private schools. Most of the elite progressives have their kids in private schools also put claim public education is A-OK for the children of the masses though. The public education systems in the metropolitan cities are run by progressive Democrats, the teacher unions are made up of progressive democrats. Some so called educators believe that black kids shouldn't be taught proper English. Using Ebonics or Black English as a Bridge to Teaching Standard English

1:41 AM  
Blogger p. anthony allen said...

Indigo;"Detroit mayor vulgar mouth Coleman Young, with his black race based ideology, drove out of town the tax base of affluent whites".

Lol! If though it's possible that you might know the truth, you're choosing to "make s#!t up." Affluent whites, and whites in general, began leaving Detroit in the late 1950's to early 60's. Detroit’s demographics changed drastically at a break neck pace after the 1967 riots. White residents fled by the tens of thousands.

Either you have no idea what you're talking about, or, as I said, you doing what most conservatives do when they seek to attack "so-called" liberals. Basically, you just "make up" crap to suit your argument.

This is what Coleman Young said in his inaugural address;

"I issue an open warning to all dope pushers, to all rip-off artists, to all muggers, it is time to leave Detroit. Hit Eight Mile Road. And I don't give a damn if they are black or white, if they wear superfly suits or blue uniforms with silver badges. Hit the road".

When Young took office the majority of the Detroit Police Department was white (85 to 90 percent). When the majority white police department heard the, "uniform with silver badges" part of the speech, the propaganda began. Within a few days the buzz among whites in the city, and in the suburbs, was that Coleman Young was talking about them! In essence the police department stoked and padded the idea that race was the issue.

As far as your screed about "liberalism", it's no more than point of attack conservative think-tank derived talking-points. They make it, you say it.

Many conservatives believe that so-called liberals promote the idea that all or most conservatives racist. I don't buy into that theory. I never have and I never will. Some believe conservatives "hate poor people." I don't buy into that either. What I do know is that most conservatives are staunch in their beliefs, and those who join the conservative movement pay very close attention to the rhetoric. In that, I believe, lies the problem with conservative followers.

Conservatives often say "Blacks don't think for themselves." The notion is silly, and lends itself to contradiction when the conversation is not politics.

Most blacks were of the opinion that George Zimmerman should have been found guilty. Did some other race make blacks feel that way? Hardly... In the Zimmerman case, most (if not all) conservatives were of the opinion that it was "okay" to profile a young black boy because most crime was being committed by young black boys. Whereas, most blacks see the profiling as unfair treatment. But wait... according to conservatives, liberals have the "unfair" notion that conservatives are racist! So are conservatives "NOT THINKING FOR THEMSELVES ALSO???" As I've said, I don't believe that all, or even most conservatives are racist. However, the point is this- both notions are "unfair." And racial profiling is particularly unfair!

So tell me, are you willing to be deprived of your rights, liberty, and personal safety because someone who looks like you did something wrong, or acts a certain way?

I once asked that question to a conservative co-worker, and he responded by citing Affirmative Action. I had to explain to him that A.A., unlike profiling, doesn't get people searched, detained, locked up, or possibly being killed. I also told him that I've never really supported A.A. because the way it was administered.

So the rhetorical attacks on "liberalism" is purely designed for the political realm. Conservatives have no answers for the plight of Black communities problems. If they did it would have been implemented and solved decades ago. Conservative hero Ronald Reagan and protege Bush the elder had 12 years to address the problems. Yet nothing was even attempted.

2:04 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Just a note from a small business owner who makes a living servicing industrial equipment.

One of the problems that is often missed in conversations about the automotive industry and industry in general is the effect of the cost of personnel on the business.

Several posters have commented on the exodus of people and businesses from Detroit. One of the reasons for that was indeed the riots in the sixties. However, the problem started long before. First with Henry Ford's obsession with efficiency and lower cost and later with government regulation and unionization.

In Henry Ford's day, it took more than ten times as many people to build a single, much simpler car than it does today. As labor costs rose, there was greater incentive to find ways to reduce costs. These costs rose due to worker's comp, taxes, human resources costs, training, the list goes on and on. Notice wages paid to the worker isn't on this list because the other costs are two to four times the wage paid. Some of these costs are necessary protections for the worker. Many are unnecessarily high or simply unnecessary because of government interference.

Today, most of the car is built by a machine. Only complicated tasks and final assembly are handled by people. The same is becoming true of many other industries. I service machinery at three companies that was imported from Europe. These machines were invented specifically to eliminate the need for people. Europe already has an issue where the overhead costs of employees are so high that every effort is made to eliminate the need for them. European wages' buying power, generally speaking, is lower than in America.

Back to Detroit. As automation reduced the labor pool needed, good jobs left Detroit. People moved with them. That accelerated Detroit's demise. The good jobs left, in no small part, because of the overhead costs of employees.

5:38 PM  
Blogger DarkStar said...

And if I asked you to provide evidence to back up your ridiculous absertion, you would would be able to?

Yes, I can.

Try research on your own.

In the 1980's, the Japanesse automakers such as Toyotoa, Datsun(Nissan) Honda were crushing the American automakers and taking their market share due to the Asian quality being far and beyond that of the American auto makers.

That's what I was referring to. American cars were being made, poorly, on purpose, with the intention to replace. By the time the American car companies started taking Japanese car companies seriously, the Japanese were eating their lunch. Look up the history of the Honda and what was said about Honda when they introduced the first cars.

Further more, your claim is weak based on the fact that the American auto quality didn't really start going down until the late 70's into the 80's.

That's not true, it was going down before then. In fact, in the late 50s, early 60s, GM came under fire for producing cars that had the habit of having the floors rust through. Look up Corvair.

What was the percentage of the population of the city Detroit that worked for GM, Chrysler and Ford 30 years ago and what is it now in 2013?

This displays your inability for rational thought. It wasn't just direct employment, it was indirect employment.

GM made cars. Other companies in the area made some materials used in the cars. They made paint used by the cars. They worked with steel used in the cars.

In fact, in the 80s, some of the most successful Black owned businesses as cataloged by Black Enterprise, were car business related.

Anyone who follows finance knows that the reason Detroit went under is the same reason why Stockton, Compton and San Bernadino have gone under. Again, do your research.

I've done it. Jobs left Detroit and then the downward spiral started. No taxes, no money for government to spend and then the mismanagement kicked in.

Unfunded Pensions are the biggest financial threat to cities

Detroit was having financial problems BEFORE the pension mess kicked in, and that is what YOU don't understand when you read.

You are dismissed. You have reading to do.

9:19 PM  
Blogger Alpha Conservative Male said...

Darkstar "
Try research on your own."

Been there,and I've clearly done that, thank you.

Nobody in the media even among progressives haven't blamed the automakers for Detroit's bankruptcy. The fact of the matter is that the majority of the population of the city of Detroit never worked for the big three. I've asked the question several times "how many automotive production plants are or were in the city limits of Detroit Michigan" and I have yet to get an answer to that. Detroit has a population around 700,000 and is bankrupt. The city of Baltimore which has a population of 640,000 people and never an automotive production presence isn't bankrupt. So Baltimore has all the social and economic ills just like Detroit with a smaller population and no centralized major employer isn't bankrupt. Translation DarKstar, blaming the Automotive industry for what happened is a desperate joke to explain away to root causes.

Darkstar "That's not true, it was going down before then. In fact, in the late 50s, early 60s, GM came under fire for producing cars that had the habit of having the floors rust through. Look up Corvair."

It didn't matter if GM's quality was going down hill in the 50s's nor early 60's, the Asian competition didn't start until the 80's. The Asian auto invasion was the premise for the 80's movie "Gung Ho".

My qoute "What was the percentage of the population of the city Detroit that worked for GM, Chrysler and Ford 30 years ago and what is it now in 2013?

Darkstar's inability to directly answer the question" This displays your inability for rational thought. It wasn't just direct employment, it was indirect employment.GM made cars. Other companies in the area made some materials used in the cars. They made paint used by the cars. They worked with steel used in the cars."

So playing devil advocate then I'll ask this question, what percentage of the city population of Detroit worked for companies that "indirectly" worked with the auto industry. Further what were the major companies that were located in the city of Detroit the provided the indirect jobs?

12:00 AM  
Blogger Alpha Conservative Male said...

Darkstar "
I've done it. Jobs left Detroit and then the downward spiral started. No taxes, no money for government to spend and then the mismanagement kicked in."

uh no, there are many people in the city of Baltimore who work out in the suburbs in manufacturing jobs. Baltimore City doesn't have a major manufacturing presence, but many citty residents work for companies out in the burbs such as Procter and Gamble, McCormick, Stanley Tools, Becton Dickserson etc etc. So it's funny to think that if an employer left the city limits that the residents wouldn't have access to employment.

Darkstar "Detroit was having financial problems BEFORE the pension mess kicked in, and that is what YOU don't understand when you read."

Using your absurd logic, that would have meant the the city government could have honored municipal contracts no matter how ridiculous they were as along as people didn't leave the city. Oh wait, the government gets it's money from the people, and when people feel they are being squeezed unnecessarily, they leave. Interesting how people who supposedly didn't have any jobs could pick up and leave the city of Detroit Darkstar, amazing. People in Baltimore City have fled for the burbs, again it's not because of a lack of jobs, it's due to a quality of life issue. Oh geez, why would I say something like that. Could it be that it's just common sense why people leave inner cities including Detroit as I said?
You can't argue with facts Darkstar



12:14 AM  
Blogger DarkStar said...

Nobody in the media even among progressives haven't blamed the automakers for Detroit's bankruptcy. The fact of the matter is that the majority of the population of the city of Detroit never worked for the big three.

That's a red herring. I'll spell it out for you again. Detroit was, and still is, and industrial city based on the automobile industry. You don't have to work, directly, for one of the Big 3 to still have a job that depends on the Big 3. A great example for that in Maryland, is the reliance on federal government workers. A better example, is "The Space Coast" in Florida and what has happened to Melbourne, Cocoa Beach, Palm Bay, etc. The Space Shuttle program ended, direct and indirect work went away. Foreclosures went up, businesses closed, like bars and restaurants, consumer stores, etc.

Do the research, look it up.

Just like when mining towns shut down because the mine closes or what happened in the south with textile towns becoming virtual ghost towns because the textile mills closed.

Again, do your research.

The city of Baltimore which has a population of 640,000 people and never an automotive production presence isn't bankrupt.

You are clueless. One, the city is close to being bankrupt which is why Rollins-Blake is making moves to cut pensions and reduce fire men and police men salaries by playing with the number of hours they work on a shift, to reduce overtime costs.

Next, Baltimore did have an automobile presence. Look up GM on Broening Highway. In fact when I went to Poly, we visited the site and I saw first hand how poorly the GM cars were being built. Alarms going off all over the place because of exceeded tolerances and the systems engineers ignored them.

So Baltimore has all the social and economic ills just like Detroit with a smaller population and no centralized major employer isn't bankrupt.

BTW, look up Bethlehem Steel and the impact of the steel mill closing on Baltimore economics.

It didn't matter if GM's quality was going down hill in the 50s's nor early 60's, the Asian competition didn't start until the 80's. The Asian auto invasion was the premise for the 80's movie "Gung Ho".

No. It started in the early to mid 70s with a big boost from the OPEC oil embargo. Honda, Toyota, and Datsun (now Nissan), had a strong foot hold by then. Look up the history of Honda Civic, Toyota B210, and Datsun Z car.

Your ignorance of history doesn't bode you well.

Now for your question: today in Detroit, the car companies account for 5% direct employment with the percentage increasing to 15% in the 'burbs. In the 50s, it was about 20% in Detroit.

Again, you are dismissed.

9:19 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

CB-" Liberals have been saying that in order to create economic growth, the government must "spend money"and that debt spending was needed."

It's like having to use your credit card to pay a bill that you are behind on. The problem is, where are you going to get the money to cover up that credit card bill? Oh, you can take out a loan and cover up my other costs including that credit card bill that was used for to pay that other bill. So, where are you going to get that money to cover up that loan? That cycle just continues and sooner or later, you may have to file for bankruptcy.

Since Hollywood, has predicted the financial turmoil of Detroit, like in Robocop 2, would Detroit be desperate enough to get out of debt by hosting a telethon?

-Big Pop

3:11 PM  
Blogger Alpha Conservative Male said...

Darkstar "That's a red herring. I'll spell it out for you again. Detroit was, and still is, and industrial city based on the automobile industry."

How can a city be called an industrial city that is based of of the automobile industry, if 1. Most of the industrial plants were NOT located in the city of Detroit 2. The majority of the residents in Detroit never worked for the auto industry? 3. The plants that indirectly support the auto industry are located out of the city of Detroit? Did that help spell that out for you Darkstar?
The automobile plants and their suppliers are located and in towns in Michigan but not in the city of Detroit. Flint, Pontiac etc
Ford's global headquarters is Dearborn Michigan. Chrysler's headquarters is in Auburn Hills Michigan, GM is the only American car company who's headquarters is in the city of Detroit. Tell me Darkstar, how many auto production or parts plants were shut down in the city of Detroit over the last lets say 50 years?

Darkstar "You don't have to work, directly, for one of the Big 3 to still have a job that depends on the Big 3."

So what jobs that the residents of Detroit were dependent upon that were indirectly linked to GM, Ford and Chrysler? I understand how production plants located in towns impact the the local economy, this wasn't the case.

Darkstar "A great example for that in Maryland, is the reliance on federal government workers."

Good example, but you hurt your case. Many of the Federal Workers "live near DC in Montgomery County, Prince Georges County and suburbs bordering DC live Chevy Chase, Rockville, etc as you know. Just as 90,000 work in downtown Baltimore, most of them flood out of the city come 5pm. Hundreds of thousands of people work in Manhattan but live outside the city. Kind of getting what I mean?

Darkstar "A better example, is "The Space Coast" in Florida and what has happened to Melbourne, Cocoa Beach, Palm Bay, etc. The Space Shuttle program ended, direct and indirect work went away. Foreclosures went up, businesses closed, like bars and restaurants, consumer stores, etc. "

It's called ripple effect. Basically it's trickle down economics but without the trickle. Since the auto industry is a Michigan industry, that would mean that other towns and cities would be as impacted also, but most of them are not in the economic dire shape as Detroit. The bottom line is that quality of life issues impacted Detroit far more then the decline of the auto industry.

2:53 PM  
Blogger Ed Brown said...

Good example, but you hurt your case. Many of the Federal Workers "live near DC in Montgomery County, Prince Georges County and suburbs bordering DC live Chevy Chase, Rockville, etc as you know.

No. As I know, I-95 and the BW parkway and both Marc lines between Baltimore and DC are packed, Mon - Fri.

Howard, Anne Arundel, Fredrick, and Baltimore counties have a large DC federal government worker population.

More later, but you're uninformed.

5:36 PM  
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