April 15th:Do you want a side order of reality with that order?
Yesterday was more then just being April 15th Tax Day, it was also "
I am a burger flipper and I demand more money then I am worth day"
Funny how fast food workers want $15 an hour, yet they can't even make a simple hamburger look appetizing to the public. Yesterday the delusional, lazy and gullible malcontents took to the streets yet again in trying to obtain a "living wage" for doing an "entry level" job. I seriously have no compassion for these people. They are hard wired into their own fantasy world in thinking how the real world of economics should work yet have no clue. Here are some of those energetic morons striking in Kansas City in front of a McDonalds.
Looking at the white sign, I'm not exactly sure how "racism and burger flipping jobs" go together. Is it because the brown meat patty is being oppressed and tortured by the silver spatula pressing it against the grill? Oh by the way, workers who actually did walk off their jobs technically could have been fired for job abandonment and should have.It's pretty said that the life's ambitious of these people are to work in a fast food place. Growing up, my mother always told me that
"if I wanted to make a good salary, then I needed to apply myself and obtain the knowledge that employers need thus willing to pay top dollar for"
She was right, and thankfully I listened to her. These burger floppers claim that they want $15 dollars an hour, yet the only thing they are willing to do is to demand that they want it. Again, these poor fools are blinded to how the real world works. My first job was working at McDonalds when I was 16 years old. It was good pocket change, but never did I think of working there as a career for obvious reasons. My favorite fast food place is Checkers. I haven't been there in awhile though. One of the reasons is that burger prices are skyrocketing. The reason is is, because the price of beef is at an all time high and is continuing to rise. So if I have the mindset that fast food is becoming too expensive, it's safe to say that many others feel the same way I do thus aren't going as frequent as often these establishments or stop going all together.So with that being said, people will definitely start changing their leisure dinning options in regards to fast food if the prices of menu items have to increases any more especially in order to compensate for a nearly 60% increase in the cost of labor, Several hings are going to happen if fast food operators are forced to pay $15.00 per worker 1. The owners are going to cut the size of their staffs 2. They will find ways to automate as much of the process as possible 3. They might have to close their restaurants entirely. 4. They will convert as many workers as possible to part time. The New York Post interviewed a fast food worker in New York who was complaining that she couldn't afford to pay her rent working at McDonald. I have a cousin who graduated college last year. He works in New York City yet lives in New Jersey. I guess my question is, who does this burger flipper and others like her in New York think they are? There are many people who are college educated or have technical skills who can't afford to live in New York City either, but you don't see them complaining. The simple concept of course is wasted on these malcontents. If a burger flipper can't afford to live in New York City on burger flipper hourly pay rate, either 1. Move to a place more affordable OUT of New York City or 2. Repeat number one. I guess McDonalds has become to fast food in the eyes of the "social justice" buffoons as they see Walmart is to retail. Victims always need to promote they symbol of their supposed oppression.
posted by Alpha Conservative Male at 9:11 PM
22 Comments:
CB;" Again, these poor fools are blinded to how the real world works. My first job was working at McDonalds when I was 16 years old".
First off, why are you complaining about what these workers "want to be paid?" Hell, fast food workers literally make "peanuts!" Moreover, you don't have to eat a McDonalds, Wendy's, or Checkers. You can make your own burgers and fries at home.
When you go to McDonalds you pay for the SERVICE (the food isn't all that good anyway) You're paying for someone to, a) deliver it to the store, b) unpack and cook it for you, c) serve it or package it for you. Being that you're not being forced to eat there, why should you care what they are paid? Ooooh wait... that's right, you're a "conservative..." You don't think, you do as you're told.
You're being instructed by a conservative politician, who earns $175,000 a year of your tax dollars, which you are FORCED TO PAY! And he wouldn't serve you a hamburger if your life depended on it. Congress voted itself a pay raise in 2009, yet your "conservative instructors" have yet to budge on the minimum wage. Congressional members also have paid full health benefits, and get a cost of living adjustment (raise) each year. All that, and a college degree ISN'T EVEN A REQUIREMENT! And you pay their salary. Yet you complain about a fast food worker that YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TO PAY? And you're calling THEM the fools..?? That's an old mind trick laced with class warfare tactics.
Tyrone, you ain't 16 no more and you don't work at McDonalds (at least I hope you don't) How old are you now, 34 or 35? If you are, that would put you at 16 years old around 1996. In 1996 the national minimum wage was $4.75. Today, it's $7.25. So if you factor in inflation and the $4.75 in "constant 1996" dollars, the McDonald's worker today is making about $4.80 and hour.
The U.S. Bureau Of Labor Statistics study shows that the median age for food preparation and serving related occupations is 29.4. These people just want to make a living wage at the job they're doing. If it means a Big Mac will cost $8.00, so be it. You don't have to buy it.
Conservatism is the equivalent of mind altering, drug induced psychosis.
p allen "First off, why are you complaining about what these workers "want to be paid?" Hell, fast food workers literally make "peanuts!" Moreover, you don't have to eat a McDonalds, Wendy's, or Checkers. You can make your own burgers and fries at home. "
It should be obvious, well to most people it is. Let me help you allen. The definition of "wage inflation" is as follows, pay attention.
Wage inflation is an inflationary spiral that occurs when wages are increased and business must, in order to pay the higher wages, charge more for their products and/or services. The wage increase, then, is not as helpful to employees since the cost of goods has also risen. If prices remain increased, workers will eventually require another wage increase to compensate for the cost of living increase.
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/w/wage-push-inflation.asp#ixzz3XiAquPPL
Liberals have a dam had time when it comes to dealing with plain logic. One very simple question for you allen, at what time during the history of raising the minumum wage has it EVER been a "living wage"? That's as straight forward as I can make it for you. You asked me how does burger floppers making $15 an hour impact me. It's in the definition of wage inflation. For starters, the owners are going to have to raise the prices of their food items to cover the increase. As a consumer, the prices will make me have to think twice about eating fast food, thus I lose out and the store loses out in a potential sale and profit. Again, common sense. Second, the price inflation will spill over into other areas causing prices for goods and services to increase for me and others. People who make $15 an hour are going to demand they get paid more, because they are not going to accept that their pay is on par with that of a burger flopper. Again wage inflation. At the end of the day, the person flipping the burger still won't be able to get ahead, because the prices around him or her will raise faster then their $15 an hour salary, and it would when "adjusted for inflation" will be just as if they were still making what they were before the increase. Any questions?
p allen "
You're being instructed by a conservative politician, who earns $175,000 a year of your tax dollars, which you are FORCED TO PAY! And he wouldn't serve you a hamburger if your life depended on it."
First off, I seriously doubt any politician conservative, liberal or moderate would do that. Use logic, if they wanted to serve burgers for a living, they wouldn't be politicians to begin with?
p allen "Congress voted itself a pay raise in 2009, yet your "conservative instructors" have yet to budge on the minimum wage."
For the record, I am against congressional pay raises. Second, liberals also voted themselves pay raises, you left that out. Good thing I am here to remind you of those pesky little details uh? ;-)
How much do the champion of the middle class liberal politicians need to make anyways in congress?
p allen "Congressional members also have paid full health benefits, and get a cost of living adjustment (raise) each year. All that, and a college degree ISN'T EVEN A REQUIREMENT! And you pay their salary. Yet you complain about a fast food worker that YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TO PAY? "
If I want to buy the goods and services from these people, then I do have to pay allen. That's what you are missing. I have an issues with 435 people in congress making more money then they should, but it doesn't financially impact me more then several million people doing it. The increases in congressional pay doesn't contribute to wage inflation like raising the minumum wage or forcing employers to pay a ridiculous salary for an entry level job.
p allen "And you're calling THEM the fools..?? "
They are FOOLS!! FOOLS!! FOOLS!! FOOLS! And I didn't even stutter repeating it. lol A smart person who wants to making a "living wage" is going to go out and apply him or herself to make it. Why do computer programmers and web designers make more then burger floppers allen?
p allen "That's an old mind trick laced with class warfare tactics. "
Actually allen, it's you and other progressives who feel that flipping burgers is the best they can do in life, I don't. That's the difference. You want people to be get paid unrealistically well for staying and be happy in mediocrity, I want them to get paid well for reaching their fullest potential in life. See the difference? I doubt it.
CB;"It should be obvious, well to most people it is. Let me help you allen. The definition of "wage inflation" is as follows, pay attention".
Quite the contrary Tyrone... So I think that you should pay attention. Although similar, "Wage Inflation" and "Cost Inflation" are different theoretically. When wages rise because of organized labor power pushing for larger wages claims, its called Cost Push Inflation, not Wage Inflation. But I'll digress...
CB;"Liberals have a dam had time when it comes to dealing with plain logic".
Noooo... You just take in everything you're told, and what you hear from conservative politicians and pundits without thinking for yourself. If you try that I guarantee that you'd come up with an entirely different set of talking points.
CB;"One very simple question for you allen, at what time during the history of raising the minumum wage has it EVER been a "living wage"?".
A "minimum wage" has never been a living wage. A minimum wage is exactly what the term describes... a "wage minimum." Hell, there have been calls by conservatives to eliminate the minimum wage.
Let me be clear. I don't know what the minimum wage should be, nor what an employee should be paid to work in the fast food industry. But in a "free market", a worker (or workers) should be able to make reasonable wage compensation demands upon an employer. I believe the $15.00 demand is merely an angle or starting point of demand to start the conversation and open up negotiations.
CB;"Second, the price inflation will spill over into other areas causing prices for goods and services to increase for me and others".
Wow! Businesses and "YOU" are really suffering because of those damn employee's demands for higher wages. Look at professional sports franchises. Because those lazy uneducated greedy athletes and their agents demand millions, everything in Baltimore costs you more. Yep... its the greedy athletes fault you pay so much for all other goods and services. Here in Detroit, every time those damn auto workers got a raise, the price of gasoline skyrocketed... didn't it? Auto workers get a raise, and "bip bang boom", food prices soar! Hell, if teachers get a raise the entire American economy might collapse! How silly can you be to let the conservative propagandists tell you that a pay raise for McDonalds workers would increase the cost of your cable TV bill... That's not economics, that's just gullible stupidity.
ACM "Actually allen, it's you and other progressives who feel that flipping burgers is the best they can do in life, I don't. That's the difference. You want people to be get paid unrealistically well for staying and be happy in mediocrity, I want them to get paid well for reaching their fullest potential in life. See the difference? I doubt it."
Conservatives are more attuned to good and evil and reality in the long term.
Liberals (lefists) are more seductive to voters who are thinking of the short term.
Liberals are more seductive to voters who are thinking short term gratification of the flesh.
Conservatives are more attuned to good, evil, reality, the long run, and the effect on the spirit.
CB;"That's what you are missing. I have an issues with 435 people in congress making more money then they should, but it doesn't financially impact me more then several million people doing it. The increases in congressional pay doesn't contribute to wage inflation like raising the minumum wage or forcing employers to pay a ridiculous salary for an entry level job".
Their salaries might not impact you, but their ACTIONS damn sure do. The conservative and Republican purpose for opposing a higher wage for an employee is predicated on the wishes (and lobbying support) of people who have their interest in the PROFITS for themselves and their businesses. That's what your $175,000 congressman does for you.
Many conservatives claim that the Reagan years economy was "Oh so great" and claim he was an economic hero. In fact, the Reagan economic era PROVES to be a poster for what NOT to do in the present economy. Also bear in mind that Reagan was not friendly to the average American worker, particularly "Union Workers."
During the Reagan presidency American business was mainly doing business in America. Interest in dealing with foreign markets wasn't really a big concern for most American companies. Today, American business sees most of its growth from overseas sales, along with having most manufacturing done offshore. Common sense tells you that is companies are moving their manufacturing to other countries, and selling more goods overseas, Americans have fewer jobs and are spending less.
There is no empirical statistical evidence that shows that raising the minimum wage causes inflation. Moreover, empirical statistics shows that "not" raising the minimum wage could very well have an adverse effect on the overall economy. Common Sense 101: People have less money to spend, thus creating "LESS" demand for goods and services. Does that make sense Tyrone?
I have to concede that I have no idea what the minimum wage should be. That's for the economists to figure out. But what I do know is that 7 or 8 dollars an hour is not working, and is definitely not a living wage.
As far as $15.00 an hour to flip hamburgers, no one really knows what effects it would have on the overall economy. However, if they are successful in getting it, I'd willing to bet the price of a Big Mac that there's very little effect, if not, no effect at all.
Indigo;"Liberals are more seductive to voters who are thinking short term gratification of the flesh.
Conservatives are more attuned to good, evil, reality, the long run, and the effect on the spirit".
"Gratification of the flesh" is neither a liberal or conservative condition, its a HUMAN condition. Anyone can call themselves a conservative and speak publicly touting every known principle to modern conservatism. That same anyone can, and has gone behind close doors and violated every single one of those same principles. So does the "secret" violations make him or her any less a conservative? NO! What it makes him is MORE human!
http://www.thefederalistpapers.org/us/judge-accuses-toddler-of-racism-sentences-attacker-to-probation
This is unacceptable! Can you do a story about it?
Saw this comment at: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/20/fracking-creates-jobs-women-prostitutes-maids-only/
“Government cannot create anything..especially a real job. Govt. by definition is parasitic, taking from working stiffs and giving to others to buy votes, in some way or other. No way a parasite can "create" anything w/o first destroying something productive. Sorry.”
A "minimum wage" has never been a living wage.
…Meanwhile, on April 15th we had thousands of protestors, college students, and workers from the fast food and service industries walk off their jobs demanding an increase in the minimum wage to 15 dollars-an-hour – since this is necessary to provide a living wageto provide for themselves and their families. BTW, here’s a link to one of the Facebook pages for the movement.
https://www.facebook.com/RaiseUpfor15
As you read on you probably noticed how advocates for a $15-hr wage conflate “minimum wage” with a “living wage”. I’ll let you go over and break the news to them that a "minimum wage" has never been a living wage. LOL!
A minimum wage is exactly what the term describes... a "wage minimum." Hell, there have been calls by conservatives to eliminate the minimum wage.
As a recall, the late economist Milton Friedman was in favor of abolishing the minimum wage was no “conservative” (he was a Libertarian). The same for economists such as Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams. In fact, they are plenty of people who are not conservatives or have libertarian leanings ( such as myself) who are not advocates of the minimum wage.
Let me be clear. I don't know what the minimum wage should be, nor what an employee should be paid to work in the fast food industry. But in a "free market", a worker (or workers) should be able to make reasonable wage compensation demands upon an employer. I believe the $15.00 demand is merely an angle or starting point of demand to start the conversation and open up negotiations.
In addition to having no knowledge as to what the minimum wage should be or what an employee should be paid to work in the fast food industry, you have no knowledge of what constitutes the “free market”. If there truly were a “free market” unencumbered by governmental interference (or outside parties telling others what constitutes “reasonable” or what they “believe”) a willing employer with an available job would be able to match up with a willing employee at any agreed upon wage or compensation. Meaning that if an employer is able to find an employee willing to work for $10-hr or some other agreed compensation, so be it. If an employer with an available job offers $10-hr for a job and finds no one willing to take his offer, that employer can either change his offer, continue to look for someone willing to take his offer, or simply not offer a job. Likewise, the person looking for an available job has the option of accepting that employer’s offer of $10-hr, negotiate a higher wage by convincing the employer they are worth more than $10-hr by virtue of their skills and/or productivity, or find an employer willing to offer them a wage more than $10-hr.
p allen "Their salaries might not impact you, but their ACTIONS damn sure do. The conservative and Republican purpose for opposing a higher wage for an employee is predicated on the wishes (and lobbying support) of people who have their interest in the PROFITS for themselves and their businesses. That's what your $175,000 congressman does for you."
Oh like the Democratic aligned UNIONS aren't pumping these fools up and playing knowing all to well that they know that these burger floppers aren't going to get $15 an dollar for a no skill entry level job. This is all about the unions using these poor souls as pawns so that they can unionize fast food works in order to get a revenue stream for the union bosses. They are merely trying to do what they failed to do with Walmart. As for "interests", who provides the jobs in the first place? Is it the burger floppers or the franchisees and the fast food companies? Sorry but I'm just using common sense as usual allen, read the first two paragraphs from the bloomberg story, checkmate What, this wasn't from a right wing source?! Oh no!! Dang, it looks like Tyrone understand how the cost structure of a product can impact how well it sales or doesn't, snap!
Indigo said "Saw this comment at: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/20/fracking-creates-jobs-women-prostitutes-maids-only/
“Government cannot create anything..especially a real job. Govt. by definition is parasitic, taking from working stiffs and giving to others to buy votes, in some way or other. No way a parasite can "create" anything w/o first destroying something productive. Sorry.”
The only thing the government can create is debt,and they are good at doing it. Other then that, it's a different story. lol You're right Indigo, When Democrats spew on about raising the minumum wage, they do it knowing that their non critical thinking base will lick it up and truly think that they benevolent economic saviors are "looking out of them". They are not giving these people money out of their own pocket, they are forcing through legislation private companies in impact their businesses to pay these people an hourly wage that doesn't make sense based on skill set for the jobs they do. Remember last year in Seattle where the dim bulb passed a $15 dollars an hour minimum wage? Oh I remember the left saying that this was going to provide a living wage for people and it would show conservatives that they were wrong about the minimum wage being raised would have a negative impact on businesses and that those complaining were doing so simply out of greed. Well it looks like common sense logic strikes again. This story is from the Seattle Magazine from last month entitled
Why are so many Seattle restaurants closing lately
Phil "As you read on you probably noticed how advocates for a $15-hr wage conflate “minimum wage” with a “living wage”. I’ll let you go over and break the news to them that a "minimum wage" has never been a living wage. LOL!"
It wouldn't work Phil. These idiots do not understand how the real world operates. All they care about is taking fantasy ideology and somehow making it real. It's all about "feeling", they "feel" they are entitled to make $15 dollars an hour flipping burgers. If you asked these minds of grill grease who a fast food store can stay profitable by raising their pay 63%, they will all look at you with a blank stare, and then they will just say "well it doesn't matter, this is what I need to survive" blah blah blah, logic be dammed.
Phil "As a recall, the late economist Milton Friedman was in favor of abolishing the minimum wage was no “conservative” (he was a Libertarian). The same for economists such as Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams. In fact, they are plenty of people who are not conservatives or have libertarian leanings ( such as myself) who are not advocates of the minimum wage."
Good point, many liberals get made at conservatives for not wanting to raise the minunum wage, libertarians would abolish it all together. Labor like any commodity is a supply vs demand issue. What liberals can't comprehend is that skilled laborers on average gets paid far exceeding the minimum wage because the demand for that skilled laborers skills exceeds the supply of people who posses that skill. Anyone can flip a burger but not everybody can be a computer programmer or Dentist, Fireman Accountant etc. If there wasn't a minimum wage, maybe that would force those who are looking to live off of it the motivation to actually go out and get the skill set that employers want so they can make a true living wage in the marketplace. The minumum wage issue is like the donkey and the carrot. The donkey is always to stupid to realize that the carrot is on the string and stick and will always be equally out of reach for each step it takes. This is why the minimum wage will never be a living wage. Market forces will guarantee that will never happen.
Phil "Let me be clear. I don't know what the minimum wage should be, nor what an employee should be paid to work in the fast food industry. But in a "free market", a worker (or workers) should be able to make reasonable wage compensation demands upon an employer. I believe the $15.00 demand is merely an angle or starting point of demand to start the conversation and open up negotiations."
In negotiations, the golden rule is to always ask for more then you want. Maybe their real target wage is $12.00 and hour, but at the end of the day fast food businesses are going to pay what they believe is fare based on their business model and the skill set that is needed to perform the jobs to make the product or service in order to make a profit.
Phil;"In addition to having no knowledge as to what the minimum wage should be or what an employee should be paid to work in the fast food industry, you have no knowledge of what constitutes the “free market”. If there truly were a “free market” unencumbered by governmental interference (or outside parties telling others what constitutes “reasonable” blah, blah, blah, etc, etc, etc...".
Welcome Phil! I see we have another Tyrone type, and another half-well instructed conservative to the fray. Lets start with your misunderstanding of what I clearly wrote. I'm saying that you don't understand what I wrote because you've been misinformed by conservative propaganda rhetoric.
I'll use the same bold text. I wrote: In a "free market", a worker (or workers) should be able to make reasonable wage compensation demands upon an employer. Now, I need you to point out where in that statement did I say the "GOVERNMENT" does or should have anything to do with a worker's wages? Workers are not an "outside party" of the free market. Although some are calling for a government mandated minimum wage, I'm speaking in terms of the workers who have banned together to push for higher wages (eg. a living wage) in general.
In your hasty attempt to prove "nothing" by saying "something", (as Tyrone often does) you negated the fact that in a free market economy, owners, businesses, consumers and workers are free to produce, sell and purchase goods and services. The selling also includes the "services" of the "WORKER." Therefore, the worker also holds a stake in the success (and/or failure) of the business.
To make a long story short, I believe that you, like most uninformed conservatives, are propagandized and confused by the "unions are evil" rhetoric spewed by conservative politicians and pundits. Here's an undeniable fact that many uninformed conservatives are too brainwashed to understand. If you were not born into a "well-to-do" family, its highly likely and extremely probable that your parents and/or grandparents were benefactors of "union" negotiated wages and benefits.
So if you were not born with a silver spoon in your mouth, the food you ate, the clothes you wore, the visits you took to the hospital and possibly your college education, were all paid for through the efforts of "UNIONS." Yet, this is how your conservative instructors have taught you how to pay it back...?
p. allen: Welcome Phil! I see we have another Tyrone type, and another half-well instructed conservative to the fray. Lets start with your misunderstanding of what I clearly wrote. I'm saying that you don't understand what I wrote because you've been misinformed by conservative propaganda rhetoric.
I'll use the same bold text. I wrote: In a "free market", a worker (or workers) should be able to make reasonable wage compensation demands upon an employer. Now, I need you to point out where in that statement did I say the "GOVERNMENT" does or should have anything to do with a worker's wages? Workers are not an "outside party" of the free market. Although some are calling for a government mandated minimum wage, I'm speaking in terms of the workers who have banned together to push for higher wages (eg. a living wage) in general.
I fully understood what you wrote but clearly you didn’t understand or grasp what I wrote. My whole point was that a free market currently does not exist due in part to the government interference and other outside entities dictating to two parties (the employer and the employee) as to what is “reasonable”. BTW, in that statement you wrote, exactly who is it that determines what is “reasonable” Is it the willing employee and employer who through negotiations determines what is “reasonable” to both parties? Or is it local and state governments as well as the federal government that has dictated to employers what a “reasonable” minimum hourly wage is or who they choose to hire (see: “Ban the Box Laws)?
p. allen: In your hasty attempt to prove "nothing" by saying "something", (as Tyrone often does) you negated the fact that in a free market economy, owners, businesses, consumers and workers are free to produce, sell and purchase goods and services.
Actually, in your feeble attempt to prove a point, you’re engaging in intellectual dishonesty. Since we were discussing the free market relationship of a willing employee matching up with a willing employer at an agreed upon wage (or compensation), there is no need to discuss things beyond that scope (remember, we are discussing the minimum/living wage) and you know it.
p allen: The selling also includes the "services" of the "WORKER." Therefore, the worker also holds a stake in the success (and/or failure) of the business.
The same “worker” not contractually obligated to a particular employer who is free to offer their services or skills to another employer, or is free to use their skills or services to employ others. The same “worker” who if a business goes under or suffers some catastrophe (like a fire) is free to walk away, as opposed to the person who owns and/or invested money into it. The same “worker” who if the business which employs them fails is free to offer their skills and productivity to another employer.
p allen: To make a long story short, I believe that you, like most uninformed conservatives, are propagandized and confused by the "unions are evil" rhetoric spewed by conservative politicians and pundits. Here's an undeniable fact that many uninformed conservatives are too brainwashed to understand. If you were not born into a "well-to-do" family, its highly likely and extremely probable that your parents and/or grandparents were benefactors of "union" negotiated wages and benefits.
So if you were not born with a silver spoon in your mouth, the food you ate, the clothes you wore, the visits you took to the hospital and possibly your college education, were all paid for through the efforts of "UNIONS." Yet, this is how your conservative instructors have taught you how to pay it back...?
Actually, I worked and paid my way (sometimes doing things I really didn't like) through school so that I could in turn buy things such as my own car, house, etc. And I managed to do this as many others have – on my own.
Phil;"I fully understood what you wrote but clearly you didn’t understand or grasp what I wrote. My whole point was that a free market currently does not exist due in part to the government interference and other outside entities dictating to two parties (the employer and the employee) as to what is “reasonable".
Again, point out where in that statement I referred to the GOVERNMENT... Dude, get off of it. In this instance I'm not talking about government interference or intervention. My statement "is-what-it-is!" Had I meant something else, I would have stated it.
Phil;"BTW, in that statement you wrote, exactly who is it that determines what is “reasonable” Is it the willing employee and employer who through negotiations determines what is “reasonable” to both parties?".
Again, I said; In a "free market", a WORKER OR WORKERS should be able to make reasonable wage compensation demands upon an employer. Honestly Phil, are you just trying to pick an argument, or is it that you really don't understand plain English? Do you think that a WORKER should not be able to make salary demands? Salary demands are part of the exercise of a "free market."
Phil;"remember, we are discussing the minimum/living wage) and you know it".
No! You're discussing the "minimum/living wage"...what ever that is. The present minimum wage is hardly a living wage. The workers that were protesting in front of McDonalds weren't protesting for the government to mandate a $15 wage. (although I'm sure they wouldn't mind it...) They are trying to make the fast food industry recognize their need for a "living wage." Their efforts and ideas are no different than the auto workers of the AFL and the UAW who fought for pay and recognition from auto builders.
Phil;"The same “worker” not contractually obligated to a particular employer who is free to offer their services or skills to another employer, or is free to use their skills or services to employ others. The same “worker” who if a business goes under or suffers... etc, etc, etc..."
Right! Now you're getting it. In addition, that same worker should be able to make reasonable demands upon said employer for wages and benefits.
I'm beginning to think that you feel as though an employee "should not" be able to demand a raise, or for that matter any type of demands. Do you think just because you're paying someone what "you" see fit, is just cause for them to shut their mouths, be happy and take whatever [little or pittance] you're willing to give them? Do you believe that a free market allows an employer to be coercive and treat an employee in any way that he or she chooses?
Mind you, I'm not suggesting that a free market should require ethical or moral behavior. Hell, alcohol and tobacco kill people every day. Yet they are "choices" made by those who choose to consume those market products. What I'm saying is that, workers demands are a free market component. Yes, workers have a "choice" to not sell their labor to a particular employer, which by the way is "reasonable and understandable." However, by under that same principle, workers can "choose" to "reasonable demands" from an employer for compensation for said labor. It's just that simple dude....
p. allen: Again, point out where in that statement I referred to the GOVERNMENT... Dude, get off of it. In this instance I'm not talking about government interference or intervention. My statement "is-what-it-is!" Had I meant something else, I would have stated it.
I was explaining to you why the current system wasn’t truly a free market system. I understand why you are upset though – lack of reading comprehension skills often befuddle people such as yourself. LOL!
p allen: Again, I said; In a "free market", a WORKER OR WORKERS should be able to make reasonable wage compensation demands upon an employer. Honestly Phil, are you just trying to pick an argument, or is it that you really don't understand plain English?
No, I simply understand that words have meanings, and that when you use ambiguous terms such as “reasonable”, what is reasonable to one party may or may not be reasonable to another.
p allen: Do you think that a WORKER should not be able to make salary demands? Salary demands are part of the exercise of a "free market."
Of course. But I should point out that Ndamukong Suh can demand a contract worth 200 million dollars, but his demands are worthless unless a team is willing to give it to him based on their value of his skills and productivity.
p allen: No! You're discussing the "minimum/living wage"...what ever that is. The present minimum wage is hardly a living wage.
Maybe you should go back and read the story Tyrone wrote about, because that’s exactly what we are discussing. And as I pointed out (with a link to their Facebook page) these very groups conflate the minimum wage with a living wage.
p allen: The workers that were protesting in front of McDonalds weren't protesting for the government to mandate a $15 wage. (although I'm sure they wouldn't mind it...) They are trying to make the fast food industry recognize their need for a "living wage." Their efforts and ideas are no different than the auto workers of the AFL and the UAW who fought for pay and recognition from auto builders.
O.K. p. allen, since the fast food industry thus far has balked at the demands of these protesters (mainly because the majority of fast food establishments do not believe their skills (which are minimal) and productivity are worth what they are demanding), how do you expect them to get the $15-hr they’re asking for? Let me tell you how, they will get their “living wage” by pushing local governments to pass $15-hr living wage ordinances like those recently implemented in places such as Seattle and San Francisco.
p allen: Right! Now you're getting it. In addition, that same worker should be able to make reasonable demands upon said employer for wages and benefits.
And those “demands” mean nothing if you can’t find one employer will to agree to them.
p allen: I'm beginning to think that you feel as though an employee "should not" be able to demand a raise, or for that matter any type of demands. Do you think just because you're paying someone what "you" see fit, is just cause for them to shut their mouths, be happy and take whatever [little or pittance] you're willing to give them? Do you believe that a free market allows an employer to be coercive and treat an employee in any way that he or she chooses?
Just to clarify things for you, I have no problems with an employee approaching their boss asking for a raise by demonstrating their value to the employer based on their productivity and/or skills. People do this every day. In fact, I've done it. That’s the thing that “living wage/minimum wage” proponents don’t seem to grasp – if you want a raise or more money you accomplish it by demonstrating your value to your company or go out and gain the skills that demand more money as opposed to demanding more money because you need a “living wage”.
Phil;"I was explaining to you why the current system wasn’t truly a free market system. I understand why you are upset though – lack of reading comprehension skills often befuddle people such as yourself. LOL!".
When did I say that the current system was truly a free market system? The American economic system is by "definition" a free market system. In basketball the ball has to go through the basket for a team to score points. Yet, in baseball the ball doesn't need to touch a "base" to score points. Hell, in football you can score points with or without the ball every touching your feet. Get my drift?
Phil;"Maybe you should go back and read the story Tyrone wrote about, because that’s exactly what we are discussing. And as I pointed out (with a link to their Facebook page) these very groups conflate the minimum wage with a living wage".
Ahhhh? Noooooo... Perhaps you should go back and read Tyrone's essay. Read through it carefully (which is something you obviously don't do). I'll give you the opportunity to open a new tab, and read it. Stop reading this paragraph right now and read Tyrone's essay...
Are you back? Good! Now, copy and paste the sentence where Tyrone writes, mentions or uses the term "MINIMUM WAGE." Can't find it, can you? Phil, I'll be honest here. You seem like a smart guy, but you're bad at bull-s#&$ing.
Phil;"how do you expect them to get the $15-hr they’re asking for? Let me tell you how, they will get their “living wage” by pushing local governments to pass $15-hr living wage ordinances like those recently implemented in places such as Seattle and San Francisco".
I've already stated that I can't, won't say, and really don't know what a "government mandated" minimum wage should be. However, if local or federal governments implements a $15/hr I'm sure they won't complain. Frankly, I don't have a dog in the fight over the "minimum wage" issue. However, those who work these jobs do.
Phil;"No, I simply understand that words have meanings, and that when you use ambiguous terms such as “reasonable”, what is reasonable to one party may or may not be reasonable to another.".
My entire point from the jump has been that "workers" should be able to make demands for their labor. Moreover, the term "reasonable" means just that... within "reason." When simply put, is a point at which both the employer and the employee can agree.
Phil;"And those “demands” mean nothing if you can’t find one employer will to agree to them".
Exactly! In a free market you can make demands of an employer even if you can't find one that will meet those demands. Now do you understand how a "free market" works?
p. allen: When did I say that the current system was truly a free market system? The American economic system is by "definition" a free market system. In basketball the ball has to go through the basket for a team to score points. Yet, in baseball the ball doesn't need to touch a "base" to score points. Hell, in football you can score points with or without the ball every touching your feet. Get my drift?
I never said you did, I’m simply pointing out the reality which is it is not. Get my drift?
p. allen: Ahhhh? Noooooo... Perhaps you should go back and read Tyrone's essay. Read through it carefully (which is something you obviously don't do). I'll give you the opportunity to open a new tab, and read it. Stop reading this paragraph right now and read Tyrone's essay...
Are you back? Good! Now, copy and paste the sentence where Tyrone writes, mentions or uses the term "MINIMUM WAGE." Can't find it, can you? Phil, I'll be honest here. You seem like a smart guy, but you're bad at bull-s#&$ing.
What are arguing about? My point was that term “minimum wage” has become synonymous with the term “living wage”, Even proponents of the 15-hr have used both terms synonymously. If you wish to engage in pointless arguments, then continue without me.
p allen: I've already stated that I can't, won't say, and really don't know what a "government mandated" minimum wage should be. However, if local or federal governments implements a $15/hr I'm sure they won't complain. Frankly, I don't have a dog in the fight over the "minimum wage" issue. However, those who work these jobs do.
Of course they won’t complain, since they’re not the ones who are mandated through government fiat to pay their employees $15-hr.
p allen: My entire point from the jump has been that "workers" should be able to make demands for their labor. Moreover, the term "reasonable" means just that... within "reason." When simply put, is a point at which both the employer and the employee can agree.
And as I stated, an employee is free to make demands of an employer, but that doesn’t mean that an employer will agree with them.
p allen: Exactly! In a free market you can make demands of an employer even if you can't find one that will meet those demands. Now do you understand how a "free market" works?
Of course I understand how the free market works. What have we been discussed over the last several posts?
Phil;"What are arguing about? My point was that term “minimum wage” has become synonymous with the term “living wage”, Even proponents of the 15-hr have used both terms synonymous. If you wish to engage in pointless arguments, then continue without me".
Why would you believe that I'm arguing when you asked me "FIRST" to "go back and read" the article? This is what you wrote;
"Maybe you should go back and read the story Tyrone wrote about, because that’s exactly what we are discussing".
So as you had asked, I went back and read it again. And just as I knew all along, Tyrone had wrote nothing about a minimum wage in his essay. In fact, in the essay he dealt strictly with the demands for the $15 wage by relaying his disgust (confusion really) with people he refers to as "burger floppers." I initially mentioned the government mandated minimum wage because that's what most of these jobs pay. The fact is that these workers are attempting to be paid a LIVING WAGE, not a minimum wage.
As far as these workers "conflating or using minimum and living wage synonymous, that's an idea that you've built in your own mind. Are there some who would like to have a government mandated $15 minimum wage? Sure there are. But that's not what Tyrone wrote about, and it's not what I'm talking about. It's not even what the protest in the video Tyrone posted are talking about! Go back and watch the video. I didn't hear, nor see one sign that said "MINIMUM" anything.
But you foolishly continue to attempt to bull$#!t. So its probably best that you continue to bull$#!t yourself....
Dear ACM,
As the mayhem and madness get more and more out of control, your commentary on it is getting better and better. In fact, I think you're becoming one of the best observers of the current American scene in the entire blogosphere.
(I also can't believe how you maintain your tolerance toward that parody of liberalism, P. Anthony Allen. Who obviously has no idea what is meant by a "side order of reality".)
P. Anthony, do you really think these people are going to "make a living wage" if they drive their employers out of business? And stop waving around the high salaries of others to justify their stupidity. Every one of you types goes through the same routines, the same non sequitur arguments, the same pandering to the psychology of envy.
p. allen,
The New York Post article which Tyrone references is filed under "minimum wage" and links to other articles which mentions minimum wage (including one that mentions the protesters demanding $15-hr minimum wage). Like I said, you're arguing over nonsense. I'll give you the last word on this issue since there 's nothing else to discuss.
Nightspore;"P. Anthony, do you really think these people are going to "make a living wage" if they drive their employers out of business?".
Ahhhh.. NO! Actually, when or if a company goes out of business, the business doesn't exist any more. Therefore, no one is being paid. Does that make sense?
Secondly, if a company is driven out of business by employee salaries, wouldn't that mean the business owner didn't know what he was doing (managing income, pricing, overhead, etc...) by literally "giving" his profits away? Does that make sense?
The argument you all have is not based on an empirical economic evidence. Your argument stems from your dislike of "Unions" and so-called "leftest tactics." Being that your objections and argument are based more so on politic's rather than common sense, you'll conjure up any scenario you can create in your own mind, simply to satisfy your dislikes of "unions, liberals, and the left."
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